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The politics of short-stopping firepower

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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:22 pm

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cthia wrote:
19chickens wrote:I've just finished The Short Victorious War and in it the minelayers used to lay a trap for the Havenites were on route to another system when the war warning from Manticore arrived, so Admiral Parks stopped them at Hancock.

I'm in the midst of a reread. A slow, lingering holiday read. Vacation still amidst! Company still amidst!

Nice eye. If he hadn't shortstopped those minelayers -- which turned out to be the final trick card the Manties could play, Fearless may have been destroyed and Chin's Fleet wouldn't have been sucked into a trap.

I'd wager odds weak for another system needing them as badly.



Nike the BC, not Fearless. Fearless was Honor's previous 2 command's names, A Star Knight CA and the refitted Courageous class CL- neither of which were at Hancock.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by cthia   » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:52 pm

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cthia wrote:
19chickens wrote:I've just finished The Short Victorious War and in it the minelayers used to lay a trap for the Havenites were on route to another system when the war warning from Manticore arrived, so Admiral Parks stopped them at Hancock.

I'm in the midst of a reread. A slow, lingering holiday read. Vacation still amidst! Company still amidst!

Nice eye. If he hadn't shortstopped those minelayers -- which turned out to be the final trick card the Manties could play, Fearless may have been destroyed and Chin's Fleet wouldn't have been sucked into a trap.

I'd wager odds weak for another system needing them as badly.
Theemile wrote:Nike the BC, not Fearless. Fearless was Honor's previous 2 command's names, A Star Knight CA and the refitted Courageous class CL- neither of which were at Hancock.

Brain fart.

My bad. Always in my peripheral vision and on my mind and in my psyche, when it comes to Honor I have the same problem as Scotty had likey...

Fearless. No bloody A, B, C, or Nike.

Pardon.

.
Last edited by cthia on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:49 am

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cthia wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:Zulu orders over ride orders if you can get back in any semblance of enough time. Otherwise you would either continue or take a break and wait in the nearest orders loop. There must be a confirmation for a Zulu command otherwise the enemy would use it all the time. Likewise miss using it or over reacting to something could spiral out of control.
Donnachaidh wrote:I don't know what you're talking about but it's not the Honorverse. I've read through the entire series a few times and the only "Zulu" reference is "Case Zulu" which is the RMN case for invasion; nothing about an order overriding another order or a confirmation of a command or an enemy using it.


Exactly what is it about Lord Skimper's post that incites a riot? His post is right on the money. I tried to incite similar thought and discussion about the possible command structure of a Case Zulu a few posts back. It is quite interesting to consider what is actually contained within The OFFICIAL CASE: ZULU Handbook of Regulations and Training.

And I would assume, as Lord Skimper seems to assume, that certain straightforwardness in any logic can be posited regarding command authority along with certain preset and likely primitives. One such being, that it seems Skimper and I can 'ceive of being, is...

STOP. PROCEED HOME. No matter where you are headed, are doing, or think you are doing. Are going, or think you are going. Are planning, or think you are planning. STOP! Proceed home if you can get Home within the set number of time critical (TC) located elsewhere in handbook.


When Lord Skimper refers to "Zulu," he is informally referring to "Case: Zulu." Again, informally. As would result in the midst of War where necessary for conciseness...

"Ca— Zulu! Case—" garbled communication "lu."

"Say again! Say again! Ka Lu?"

"Zulu! Zulu! Zulu!"


****** *

Lord Skimper wrote:Zulu orders over ride orders if you can get back in any semblance of enough time.


[You are required to immediately return Home no matter what orders you have been previously issued or under. Pursuant to Case Zulu regulations.]

Wholly intuitive.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by munroburton   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:28 am

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cthia wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:Zulu orders over ride orders if you can get back in any semblance of enough time.


[You are required to immediately return Home no matter what orders you have been previously issued or under. Pursuant to Case Zulu regulations.]

Wholly intuitive.


I have to disagree, if we're talking post-annexation. The very first instance of Zulu we readers saw was in OBS - when Basilisk was threatened, not Manticore. The Case Zulu that Commander Harrington set off resulted in Home Fleet squadrons leaving Manticore.

During the second Case Zulu we see(First Manticore), we did not see every single RMN ship drop whatever they were doing and return home. A small force was left behind in Trevor's Star and neither the Gregor nor Basilisk pickets responded, for example.

True, back in the old days, before Manticore had annexed Basilisk, the Zulu plans would have focused exclusively on Manticore system defense - because it was the only thing they had to defend.

However, this has changed considerably. Whilst Manticore is still the most important system of the Star Empire, it cannot afford to abandon the other fifty-something systems now part of its defensive obligations.

Even before the transformation into an Empire, Manticore already had those additional obligations in the form of its Alliance partners. Plus Basilisk, obviously.

Case Zulu: Alert! I have good reason to believe an invasion of Manticoran territory is imminent. Please read the attached message NOW!
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:24 am

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cthia wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:Zulu orders over ride orders if you can get back in any semblance of enough time.


[You are required to immediately return Home no matter what orders you have been previously issued or under. Pursuant to Case Zulu regulations.]

Wholly intuitive.
munroburton wrote:I have to disagree, if we're talking post-annexation. The very first instance of Zulu we readers saw was in OBS - when Basilisk was threatened, not Manticore. The Case Zulu that Commander Harrington set off resulted in Home Fleet squadrons leaving Manticore.

During the second Case Zulu we see(First Manticore), we did not see every single RMN ship drop whatever they were doing and return home. A small force was left behind in Trevor's Star and neither the Gregor nor Basilisk pickets responded, for example.

True, back in the old days, before Manticore had annexed Basilisk, the Zulu plans would have focused exclusively on Manticore system defense - because it was the only thing they had to defend.

However, this has changed considerably. Whilst Manticore is still the most important system of the Star Empire, it cannot afford to abandon the other fifty-something systems now part of its defensive obligations.

Even before the transformation into an Empire, Manticore already had those additional obligations in the form of its Alliance partners. Plus Basilisk, obviously.

Case Zulu: Alert! I have good reason to believe an invasion of Manticoran territory is imminent. Please read the attached message NOW!


I have no problem agreeing with your assessment. Hence, pursuant to specific Case Zulu rules and regulations found in handbook. Which covers all manner of irregularities and peculiarities.

I don't suppose that you'll argue with preset primitives existing in a Case Zulu? Which is the point of a Case Zulu—where the need of second guessing one's responsibility and bailiwick has been removed. I would imagine that Case Zulu rules and regulations are forever being updated and rewritten as the Kingdom expands. Hell, I imagine a major update of Case Zulu specifics after the Star Kingdom became the Star Empire.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:06 pm

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cthia wrote:
I don't suppose that you'll argue with preset primitives existing in a Case Zulu? Which is the point of a Case Zulu—where the need of second guessing one's responsibility and bailiwick has been removed. I would imagine that Case Zulu rules and regulations are forever being updated and rewritten as the Kingdom expands. Hell, I imagine a major update of Case Zulu specifics after the Star Kingdom became the Star Empire.

Actually I doubt Manticore would go down the route of prescribing mandatory actions for each level of command based on a case Zulu.

Even something as simple as relaying the invasion warning to the nodal defense force responsible for that area leaves that nodal force's commanders with multiple conflicting responsibilities.

Yes they need to defend the threatened system - but not at the risk of leaving other systems and assets within his area of responsibility unprotected/underprotected. The commander has to make a judgement call about whether or how to reallocated his forces in response to the case Zulu and there are too many variables to have predefined everything to the point where no second guessing is required.

Is the attack a feint to weaken defenses elsewhere?
If the local force strong enough to defend the system or should they simply picket while screaming for more help?
Did the attack leave the attacker's base underdefended - should you temporarily ignore the loss of a less important system to strike will all your weight at the enemy's local base?
etc. etc. etc.

Second guessing your various (and often conflicting) command responsibilities seem increased under Case Zulu rather than removed...
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by munroburton   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:39 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:
I don't suppose that you'll argue with preset primitives existing in a Case Zulu? Which is the point of a Case Zulu—where the need of second guessing one's responsibility and bailiwick has been removed. I would imagine that Case Zulu rules and regulations are forever being updated and rewritten as the Kingdom expands. Hell, I imagine a major update of Case Zulu specifics after the Star Kingdom became the Star Empire.

Actually I doubt Manticore would go down the route of prescribing mandatory actions for each level of command based on a case Zulu.

Even something as simple as relaying the invasion warning to the nodal defense force responsible for that area leaves that nodal force's commanders with multiple conflicting responsibilities.

Yes they need to defend the threatened system - but not at the risk of leaving other systems and assets within his area of responsibility unprotected/underprotected. The commander has to make a judgement call about whether or how to reallocated his forces in response to the case Zulu and there are too many variables to have predefined everything to the point where no second guessing is required.

Is the attack a feint to weaken defenses elsewhere?
If the local force strong enough to defend the system or should they simply picket while screaming for more help?
Did the attack leave the attacker's base underdefended - should you temporarily ignore the loss of a less important system to strike will all your weight at the enemy's local base?
etc. etc. etc.

Second guessing your various (and often conflicting) command responsibilities seem increased under Case Zulu rather than removed...


Exactly. Hence, "Case Zulu" is really only the highest-priority header any message in the RMN carries - it's a recognisable code word which makes the entire chain of command sit up and take notice.

Like Star Trek's "red alert," but on a strategical scale.
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:57 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:
I don't suppose that you'll argue with preset primitives existing in a Case Zulu? Which is the point of a Case Zulu—where the need of second guessing one's responsibility and bailiwick has been removed. I would imagine that Case Zulu rules and regulations are forever being updated and rewritten as the Kingdom expands. Hell, I imagine a major update of Case Zulu specifics after the Star Kingdom became the Star Empire.

Actually I doubt Manticore would go down the route of prescribing mandatory actions for each level of command based on a case Zulu.

Even something as simple as relaying the invasion warning to the nodal defense force responsible for that area leaves that nodal force's commanders with multiple conflicting responsibilities.

Yes they need to defend the threatened system - but not at the risk of leaving other systems and assets within his area of responsibility unprotected/underprotected. The commander has to make a judgement call about whether or how to reallocated his forces in response to the case Zulu and there are too many variables to have predefined everything to the point where no second guessing is required.

Is the attack a feint to weaken defenses elsewhere?
If the local force strong enough to defend the system or should they simply picket while screaming for more help?
Did the attack leave the attacker's base underdefended - should you temporarily ignore the loss of a less important system to strike will all your weight at the enemy's local base?
etc. etc. etc.

Second guessing your various (and often conflicting) command responsibilities seem increased under Case Zulu rather than removed...


I disagree in part. But first, let us establish the scenario of most importance as far as Manticore is concerned. The imminent invasion of the Manticore Binary System. Every other concern becomes secondary to the defense of the Home system. If an enemy gets itself into position and controls the orbitals, "Check and Mate." Then it doesn't matter at all about any other nodal or command considerations. Game over.

If it isn't hardwired that certain of your forces must respond in a Case Zulu, then you run the very same risk of Santino-and-Young-like idiots refusing to comply amidst their own reasoning buried within simple cowardice and fear! Or ignorance. You are setting yourself up for what happened with Young and Warlock.

Sure, there are other variables that might need to be considered pursuant to official rules and regulations, but I won't agree that the main component of the decision process isn't already written in stone.

Or you expose yourself to selfish-ass imbeciles like Pavel Young claiming that he thought the system that he was in, say Trevor's Star if he'd been in Honor's place, was more important. Just to save his own ass.

I'm not advocating against a command being free of decisions. Just free of a lack of specifics.


Scenario:

The Battle of Manticore was won by the Peeps because after all was said and done, too many RMN commands exercised their own initiative and failed to return. Hardly anyone did.

To ensure reliability, you have to hardwire certain realities into a Case Zulu.

I would even imagine that an officer who has a feeling that it is a feint and that his own area of command will be attacked, realizes that he makes the decision not to respond at his own peril, and may face a court-martial if the home system lives. Yet I imagine that he does it at his own risk anyways, truly for the "Honor of the Queen," but he is prepared to suffer the consequences.

But that does not change certain preexisting imperatives of a Case Zulu. Or what is the point of issuing a potentially impotent emergency warning of invasion? Impotent if certain responses aren't assured.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by John Prigent   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:22 pm

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Case Zulu means 'invasion imminent'. Wouldn't all those receiving that message immediately look to see where it originated and make tracks to the threatened place IF FEASIBLE? Clearly only those within reach are expected to respond, for others it simply ISN'T feasible.

Cheers, John
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Re: The politics of short-stopping firepower
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:40 pm

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John Prigent wrote:Case Zulu means 'invasion imminent'. Wouldn't all those receiving that message immediately look to see where it originated and make tracks to the threatened place IF FEASIBLE? Clearly only those within reach are expected to respond, for others it simply ISN'T feasible.

Cheers, John
Well, no. They'd still have to consider what system was threatened with invasion and what their other command priories were.

Certainly the entirety of home fleet didn't instantly come screaming into Basilisk in response to Honor's Case Zulu - though it was certainly feasible for them to have quickly reached Basilisk.

Even in time of peace only a couple squadrons of wallers were detached and sent -- just in case the whole thing was a feint to leave the home system under-defended for the Peep's classic surprise knockout blow.



Obviously that's an extreme example, but similar logic would need to apply to any commander learning of an imminent invasion of Manitocoran territory.
What can I send without unduly risking my other obligations?
Would a force that size simply be throwing good money after bad? (IOW do I need to wait for reinforcements to concentrate to avoid having all the relieving forces defeated in detail)




And in a lot of a ways cthia's scenario of a Case Zulu against the Manticoran home system is one in which you seem to need the least manditory response planning because the Admiralty is right there to quickly dispatch specific orders to any units within range to respond; thanks to the wormhole junction.

Yeah, the large forces at the major termini would start making contingency plans to reinforce Manticore - and possibly concentrating more of their forces near their terminus. But the initial Case Zulu would be expected to be shortly followed by more detailed orders - removing the need for them to react in an ad hoc and uncoordinated manner. For most termini the bulk of the forces in the system couldn't have physically made it to their wormhole (since a lot of the mobile forces are in-system defending the planets and stations - not stationed out at the terminus - before specific follow-on orders could be received)
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