Oh, what the heck . . .

Hi Robert132,

It was my impression that it was Robert Strange McNamara, Secretary of Defense; who was opposed by the respective house and senate committee chairmen, which is why they both got aircraft carriers [nuclear powered of course] named after them.

RSM was not a naval strategist of course, but a supposed budget money miser, who was notorious for making the wrong decision, as his record demonstrates; but he was opposed to the Edsel, because that $400 M came out of his division.

All the very best,

L

robert132 wrote:

Vince wrote:Enterprise was not quite a one off, at least in regard to her hull. She was to have a sister nuclear powered carrier, the John F. Kennedy (CV-67), but the cost was deemed to be too high (by Congress, IIRC) and therefore Kennedy was completed as the last conventionally powered USN carrier.

Both the JFK CV-67 and America CV-66 are near sisters of Kitty Hawk CV-63 and like Constellation CV-64 are thought of as being Kitty Hawk class ships.

Your comment about CV-67 starting out as an Enterprise class is equally true of CV-66. Both contracts were modified before the keels were actually laid, to be completed instead as near sisters of CV-63, a very successful design.

I think the original thinking was to build 3 copies of CVN-65 for a class of 4 but $400 million each seemed to be too expensive for Congress to swallow at the time.

For a ship that IIRC was only to remain in service for 20 to 25 years as a development testbed I think that we got our money's worth out of Enterprise.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Robert132,

It was my impression that it was Robert Strange McNamara, Secretary of Defense; who was opposed by the respective house and senate committee chairmen, which is why they both got aircraft carriers [nuclear powered of course] named after them.

RSM was not a naval strategist of course, but a supposed budget money miser, who was notorious for making the wrong decision, as his record demonstrates; but he was opposed to the Edsel, because that $400 M came out of his division.

All the very best,

L

Being too young to remember the RSM era, All I can think of the monumental blunders and missteps he made(YF-12, F-111, etc) which made it into history "books". Can anyone point me at something where his contribution did something other than saving short term cash?

Theemile wrote:[

Being too young to remember the RSM era, All I can think of the monumental blunders and missteps he made(YF-12, F-111, etc) which made it into history "books". Can anyone point me at something where his contribution did something other than saving short term cash?

I assume you were really looking for positive outcomes, but what sprang to mind (though this is from reading, as I was also too young to experience the Macnamara era firsthand) is policies (the way replacemts were handled was disasterous) and micromanagement of Vietnam, under his watch, appear to have contributed to getting a fair number of young men killed. (And sending soldiers who'd survived their service almost instantly back into civilian life probably made PTSD worse than it had to be)

If only all he did was make decisions that were just economically penny wise and pound foolish...

Individual replacement was an army policy that dated to at least WW2. While Rumsfeld did a lot of questionable things, his killing of the Army's individual replacement policy makes up for nearly all of them.

PeterZ wrote:All this speculation leads me to ask; will those nations we read about in Shadow of Victory organize themselves into another Quadrant and seek SEM membership?

I doubt all of these systems would join, but quite a few would. If there is enough to form a union, would they join the Empire? Or would the seek membership in the Grand Alliance as independent entities?

I am curious where folks thinks the politics of the region will take the story.

I just reread that book. Your question is a good one. My sense is that by in large those folk are grateful to be rid of OFS and the transstellars and Manticore's role in bringing that about, what they are really into right now is the heady experience of managing their own affairs. While Manticore is obviously not OFS, it would be understandable if thy would keep outsiders at a distance for a while.

Don

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Hi Don,

It's good to read your posts again.

Definitely agree.

The TQ is going to cause enough problems for the SEM, that Elizabeth or anyone else in the government, isn't going to be looking for any more headaches; especially while the verge feels very grateful now [or very soon], gratitude soon leads to resentment, and given what prolong has been doing to old human rituals like marriage, I wouldn't count on gratitude beating out love as the basis for a successful long term relationship.

Besides, what's in it for the SEM?

Mutual benefits and advantages are the keys to good treaties and alliances, but what can most verge members offer the SEM?

Wormhole associated systems, who do have something to offer, might prefer treaties to membership in the SEM, or joint membership in an assembly or an equal corporate partnership for managing wormhole bridge problems, if they require outside help or adjudication.

"Permanent interests, no permanent allies" I believe was the long term policy of the British empire in its heyday, and still very pertinent advice in the honorverse more than 2000 years later.

Looking forward to more great posts,

L

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:All this speculation leads me to ask; will those nations we read about in Shadow of Victory organize themselves into another Quadrant and seek SEM membership?

I doubt all of these systems would join, but quite a few would. If there is enough to form a union, would they join the Empire? Or would the seek membership in the Grand Alliance as independent entities?

I am curious where folks thinks the politics of the region will take the story.

I just reread that book. Your question is a good one. My sense is that by in large those folk are grateful to be rid of OFS and the transstellars and Manticore's role in bringing that about, what they are really into right now is the heady experience of managing their own affairs. While Manticore is obviously not OFS, it would be understandable if thy would keep outsiders at a distance for a while.

Don

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lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

It's good to read your posts again.

Definitely agree.

The TQ is going to cause enough problems for the SEM, that Elizabeth or anyone else in the government, isn't going to be looking for any more headaches; especially while the verge feels very grateful now [or very soon], gratitude soon leads to resentment, and given what prolong has been doing to old human rituals like marriage, I wouldn't count on gratitude beating out love as the basis for a successful long term relationship.

Besides, what's in it for the SEM?

Mutual benefits and advantages are the keys to good treaties and alliances, but what can most verge members offer the SEM?

Wormhole associated systems, who do have something to offer, might prefer treaties to membership in the SEM, or joint membership in an assembly or an equal corporate partnership for managing wormhole bridge problems, if they require outside help or adjudication.

"Permanent interests, no permanent allies" I believe was the long term policy of the British empire in its heyday, and still very pertinent advice in the honorverse more than 2000 years later.

Looking forward to more great posts,

L

Manticore already has what David referred to as a "Trucial States" arrangement with the planets near the Matapan terminus. I could see newly freed systems seeking a similar arrangement with the SEM, giving them access to the MMM, Manticore and allied economies and financial opportunities, and frequent stops by RMN forces which just happen to be in the area.

Such an arrangement gives them autonomy, access to universal economic and investment partnerships, moves them into the Manticore sphere of influence on their terms, and moves them under the RMN's umbrella.

n7axw wrote:I just reread that book. Your question is a good one. My sense is that by in large those folk are grateful to be rid of OFS and the transstellars and Manticore's role in bringing that about, what they are really into right now is the heady experience of managing their own affairs. While Manticore is obviously not OFS, it would be understandable if thy would keep outsiders at a distance for a while.

Don-

In many ways, Don, having many independent states is best for the SEM. The primary benefit of Talbot and the Verge worlds for the Empire is a place to invest their WHJ fees. Many independent worlds have far less efeciencies than worlds in a union. There will be far greater need for investment in those independent worlds. Each world will need a navy, orbital infrastructure, medical infrastructure, improved education and planetary infrastructure. Those needs will soak up loads of transit fees.

I would think that even if they do not join the Empire, the Empire will insist on a common set of laws governing investments. Nothing underhanded, but fair and equitable protections for both parties. If you want Manty investment, adopt these laws.

There will be single systems that will want to join the Quadrant and perhaps enough to warrant consideration as a separate sector. As much as they want to remain independent, chaos is about to visit the galaxy. The League is still around and getting desperate. That suggests joining something larger is a good idea. Not sure that the Empire will want them, unless as Lyonheart suggests they have a terminus. IIRC, there is a termini associated with one of the systems under discussion. That system would be wise to join the Empire and its neighbors would be wise to tag along.

Given all these possibilities, I sure hope David opens the period between story arcs to other authors. I really want to read about this and he will be busy on so many other projects.

I believe the Manticore Alliance (MA) is still there in addition to the Grand Alliance (GA). The MA is an economic, diplomatic and military alliance which has several other functions beside war with Haven. RFC has not said otherwise.

It allows the GA to demonstrate to the Protectorates, Shell and Verge they are better at promotion of commerce, economic development and mutual security than the Solarian League (SL) which is another weapon against the SL. These being the core purposes of the SL.


Just my opinion,
Ken L

Now that is an interesting distinction. Let's consider allowing the lead role for the MA to fall on a rotating basis to key members of the Alliance other than Manticore. Nations like the Protectorship of Grayson could front an economic alliance while the GA focuses on a military alliance. All the while the Talbot Quadrant and Selisia can speak to SEM membership.

I have to say this period of transition is turning out to be remarkable similar to real world transition out of the post WWII world order we are witnessing now. It's all the more reason David should find authors to contribute their ideas to the transition in the Honorverse.

kenl511 wrote:I believe the Manticore Alliance (MA) is still there in addition to the Grand Alliance (GA). The MA is an economic, diplomatic and military alliance which has several other functions beside war with Haven. RFC has not said otherwise.

It allows the GA to demonstrate to the Protectorates, Shell and Verge they are better at promotion of commerce, economic development and mutual security than the Solarian League (SL) which is another weapon against the SL. These being the core purposes of the SL.


Just my opinion,
Ken L