Manticore Seniority

Fireflair wrote:From how the rest of the conversation goes, I was under the distinct impression that when enough time had gone by Admiralty asked him back but he didn't want to go back because of how he viewed his screw up. With the war on they could have used every experienced captain, even one who'd made a mistake. Look at Young, they kept him around despite a monumental screw up at Basilisk. Of course Young had the family name and politics going for him.

I felt the reason that the admiral didn't come back to service was a combination of innate character and plot reasons. The fact that ONI 'helped' him to get the ship, weapons and warrant in Sili space is a pretty clear indicator to me that they would have brought him back on if he'd wanted to come off of half-pay status.

I agree. I doubt that Admiral Bachfich would have been prone to repeat that mistake or one even remotely like it, and frankly when the missiles started flying and lasers and grasers started coming in through the side a seasoned and highly experienced officer like him would have been worth his mass in whatever precious element you care to mention.

Certainly Honor wanted him on her team, badly even though her point of view might be just a wee bit biased.

robert132 wrote:I agree. I doubt that Admiral Bachfich would have been prone to repeat that mistake or one even remotely like it, and frankly when the missiles started flying and lasers and grasers started coming in through the side a seasoned and highly experienced officer like him would have been worth his mass in whatever precious element you care to mention.

Certainly Honor wanted him on her team, badly even though her point of view might be just a wee bit biased.

I suspect Bachfich was by time then first haven war started was far more valuable as an intelligence asset in Silesian space then he could be commanding a fleet. Wartime is usually the best time rehabilitate "disgraced" officers such as Bachfich.

robert132 wrote:

jtg452" quote="ghost wrote:I don't know why I'm thinking of this now instead of after At all costs came out but I'm wondering who the senior admiral in the RMN is right now. I understand Caparelli is the First Space Lord and is pretty senior but then Givens is only a Vice Admiral. Caparelli's position doesn't necessarily mean he's the senior admiral as Webster was senior to him after he stepped down and took over home fleet.

We did lose many senior admirals during the battle of Manticore so who's left. In fact, unless I missed something, Sonia Hemphill may be senior or in the top few as she was an admiral of the green during On Basilak Station. Any thoughts or anything I missed?

There's seniority of rank, then there's the hierarchy of command. The 1st Space Lord, as Dukk pointed out, is the head of the Navy.

If you are 1st Space Lord, you are in charge. Period.

An Admiral may hold an equal rank to the 1st Space Lord and may even have more time in grade than the 1st Space Lord but the 1st Space Lord is still the superior position, so the 'junior' man is in charge.

A station commander may be technically junior to a fleet or task force commander not in his direct chain of command but, unless specifically order otherwise by higher, is still in command of and responsible for his assigned duties.

I've been catching up (slowly) on reading posts and thought I might add to this part of the discussion.

The term used by the USN today is "Positional Authority" whereby a junior, by virtue of the billet or position he/she is assigned to fill and with the authority that goes with that position can issue lawful orders to someone senior (MUCH senior) to them.

A case in point that I am familiar with is a position I filled on a regular basis ... Officer of the Deck (in Port) where as a First Class P.O. I was responsible for the safety and security of the ship while on watch in that position and had the requisite Authority as authorized by the Commanding Officer AND the responsibility to go with it.

If LT "Nose in the Air" decided he wanted to cross MY Quarterdeck he needed my permission to do so, he couldn't just bull his way across.

I once had an intruder try to enter the ship, a Chief (senior in grade to me) who was not known to me. I stopped him, he tried to browbeat me into letting him aboard without identification and I gave him a choice, cooperate and show me his ID or I'd call away the Master at Arms and my next senior in position, the Command Duty Officer.

He called my bluff and I called both the duty MAA and the CDO to the quarterdeck.

Turned out this guy actually worked for the Destroyer Squadron Staff and was well known by my MAA who, with a grin asked the CDO and I if we wanted him bounced back down the brow (gangway to you landlubbers) an onto the pier. That Chief was conducting an unscheduled test of our ship's security.

I got a pat on the back from the Squadron Commodore for standing my ground with this guy. I won't tell you what detrimental things to my career he threatened me with but I almost told Fred (the MAA / Gunner's Mate 1st Class) to bounce him into the harbor.

Positional Authority is somewhat misunderstood though, it's not absolute and DOESN'T allow you to exceed the Authority granted you by competent authority (i.e. my Captain.) So I'd have been wrong to have Fred heave this ass overboard, tempting though it was.

In the Honorverse, as an example, positional authority allows a cox'n to give orders to even senior officer embarked in his pinnace or cutter when those orders are necessary for the safe operation of the craft, same as a small craft cox'n in today's Navy or an A/C commander transporting personnel senior to him/her self.[/quote]


Know the feeling about positional authority. When I was in the Navy. I was a rig captain during a UNREP, when the new nugget safety officer kept asking my riggers stupid questions, I told him to shut the ##### up unless there was an actual safety concern and to stop distracting my riggers with stupid stuff. After the UNREP I turned him (respectively)into a chew toy for about five minutes. After I got done I turned around to walk off when I walked right into the XO. The XO told me to leave then took the Ensign to the foc'sel and proceeded to chew out the Ensign again. The ensign apologized to me later. FYI the XO had been observing from the bridge wing.

I've had the same. As a (very) junior Private I had gate guard duty in the wee small hours. Along comes someone in full MP outfit with an RSM badge claiming to be the Garrison Police commander. I'd never even been briefed that we HAD Garrison Police there, and never seen a higher GP rank than Sergeant, so got suspicious. I even made him throw his ID card to the road and back off so I could pick it up and check it, then had him recite his ID number backwards. And I STILL didn't let him pass the gate until I'd called out the duty Corporal. Yes, he gave me a dirty look as he passed by, but the Corporal gave me a quiet 'well done' afterwards.

Cheers, John

Know the feeling about positional authority. When I was in the Navy. I was a rig captain during a UNREP, when the new nugget safety officer kept asking my riggers stupid questions, I told him to shut the ##### up unless there was an actual safety concern and to stop distracting my riggers with stupid stuff. After the UNREP I turned him (respectively)into a chew toy for about five minutes. After I got done I turned around to walk off when I walked right into the XO. The XO told me to leave then took the Ensign to the foc'sel and proceeded to chew out the Ensign again. The ensign apologized to me later. FYI the XO had been observing from the bridge wing.

saber964 wrote:Know the feeling about positional authority. When I was in the Navy. I was a rig captain during a UNREP, when the new nugget safety officer kept asking my riggers stupid questions, I told him to shut the ##### up unless there was an actual safety concern and to stop distracting my riggers with stupid stuff. After the UNREP I turned him (respectively)into a chew toy for about five minutes. After I got done I turned around to walk off when I walked right into the XO. The XO told me to leave then took the Ensign to the foc'sel and proceeded to chew out the Ensign again. The ensign apologized to me later. FYI the XO had been observing from the bridge wing.

Good officers tend to do that I noticed, and tend to become the Skippers I wouldn't mind serving with again.

robert132 wrote:

Fireflair wrote:From how the rest of the conversation goes, I was under the distinct impression that when enough time had gone by Admiralty asked him back but he didn't want to go back because of how he viewed his screw up. With the war on they could have used every experienced captain, even one who'd made a mistake. Look at Young, they kept him around despite a monumental screw up at Basilisk. Of course Young had the family name and politics going for him.

I felt the reason that the admiral didn't come back to service was a combination of innate character and plot reasons. The fact that ONI 'helped' him to get the ship, weapons and warrant in Sili space is a pretty clear indicator to me that they would have brought him back on if he'd wanted to come off of half-pay status.

I agree. I doubt that Admiral Bachfich would have been prone to repeat that mistake or one even remotely like it, and frankly when the missiles started flying and lasers and grasers started coming in through the side a seasoned and highly experienced officer like him would have been worth his mass in whatever precious element you care to mention.

Certainly Honor wanted him on her team, badly even though her point of view might be just a wee bit biased.

But Bachfish did make darn near the same mistake. That's how he got "Pirates Bane" shot up. An AMC vs a CA or DD needs to be both lucky and sneaky. "Bane" wasn't.

robert132 wrote:

saber964 wrote:Know the feeling about positional authority. When I was in the Navy. I was a rig captain during a UNREP, when the new nugget safety officer kept asking my riggers stupid questions, I told him to shut the ##### up unless there was an actual safety concern and to stop distracting my riggers with stupid stuff. After the UNREP I turned him (respectively)into a chew toy for about five minutes. After I got done I turned around to walk off when I walked right into the XO. The XO told me to leave then took the Ensign to the foc'sel and proceeded to chew out the Ensign again. The ensign apologized to me later. FYI the XO had been observing from the bridge wing.

Good officers tend to do that I noticed, and tend to become the Skippers I wouldn't mind serving with again.

Good officers are rare but great officers are gem. I served under a great officer, when he came aboard, he said guy's I don't know what you do but I'm going to find out and learn. He did too. He studied our rating manual and asked questions about our job's. When he transferred off shortly before I was discharged he was going to command a TAR unit at Naval Reserve Base in Texas. IIRC he wound up commanding four ships before he retired as a Rear Admiral.

My favorite officer I served under was a Lt-commander, the engineer on a nuclear sub. He was prior Marine enlisted and was on his last tour before retirement. Very laid back, in touch with the enlisted men and how they worked/thought. He didn't tolerate BS, from enlisted or officers.

Probably the best XO I had, and he went on to be a damned good captain, was ne who came on board and immediately dived into the paperwork processes. He reviewed every ship's instruction and compared them to guidance from squadron and higher then gutted the ship's instructions. He pruned them back, cutting out loads of excess requirements which had been imposed by shipboard officers to make us do more than was required. Thus we appeared to go above and beyond and were the 'better' boat on the waterfront. That simplified the hell out of everyone's life.

I remember sitting in on the XO's meeting with the division officers when he informed them that they were either lying to him about doing everything required by ship board instructions or they weren't ever sleeping because there simply wasn't enough time in the day to meet all the imposed requirements. There were a lot of uncomfortable officers there.

I do wonder if Manticore will introduce a Blue and a White class of Admiralty. For Talbot and Silesia. White is under blue who is under red who is under green who is of course under the crown.

saber964 wrote:
Good officers are rare but great officers are gem. I served under a great officer, when he came aboard, he said guy's I don't know what you do but I'm going to find out and learn. He did too. He studied our rating manual and asked questions about our job's. When he transferred off shortly before I was discharged he was going to command a TAR unit at Naval Reserve Base in Texas. IIRC he wound up commanding four ships before he retired as a Rear Admiral.

There's one officer I served with briefly in my first ship who is still on active duty. He was Gunnery Officer in USS Caron (DD 970) when I reported aboard shortly after the ship unloaded 400 or so 5" rounds through the muzzle into the hills above Beirut Airport to protect the Marines holed up there.

He switched career tracks shortly after leaving the ship as a LT(jg) and is now the 4 Star running the NSA.

No, he wouldn't remember me.