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Nationalism in the various solarian militaries.

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Nationalism in the various solarian militaries.
Post by ThisName1   » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:47 pm

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While watching some stuff on WW-1 and the rise of nationalism in some of the subject ethnic groups in places like The Austro-Hungarian Empire I started thinking about nationalism among the members of the solarian military.

As far as I can tell, battle fleet, frontier fleet, the gendarmerie, the marines they are all made up of fully integrated units so you wont have the issue of whole ships or units from the same planet or system revolting. But with the start of secession notices being sent out I can easily see a growing unrest starting. And all it would take would be for one terminally stupid battle fleet commander combined with a stubborn populace on a world that wished to secede to cause a riot.

I guess it all depends on how many members of the military view themselves as "Solarian" or "Battle Fleet" ect first and members of their home-worlds second and how many people view themselves as members of their home-worlds who work for the military.

(I'm ignoring the members of the various planetary militaries since as far as I know they have been seconded to the league as additional resources yet.)
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Re: Nationalism in the various solarian militaries.
Post by phillies   » Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:56 pm

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Your nationalism point is extremely well made. A battle fleet commander shooting up a system that refuses to hand over its extra warships would also be an option.

Things fall apart quickly? I am reminded that at the start of World War 1 the Imperial and Royal Army of Austria-Hungary had a number of Czech regiments. My late grandfather, who was an officer of the army in question, noted that they fell apart almost immediately. Integration of the K.u.K. army was not practical, since there was no common language. instead you had German-speaking units, Hungarian-speaking units of the K.u.K. army, units of the Honved, etc.

I believe you mean they have _not_ been seconded, not that most of them are worth seconding except as extra missile sponges. Note in particular Beowulf, which readers may anticipate will in a bit be visited by the 800 SDs of the second Tangerine fleet.
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Re: Nationalism in the various solarian militaries.
Post by feyhunde   » Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:56 pm

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Its almost a bit like the US at the outbreak of the Civil War.

There's a small professional Federal military. Each of the constitute members has their own local Militia.

These Militia vary in quality and skill. Many of their officers served in the federal military during the last conflict, and may be graduates of the service academies. However, many may have attended more regional service academies. Depending on the location and economic base, as well as politics, some of these Militias were quite active.

In the US, the most active and trained Militias were those of slave states, as the Militias were used for patrolling, retrieving slaves attempting to run for freedom, and prevent/putdown rebellions. After Harper's Ferry, they also were ramped up.

It's a bit different than the case with the SL, as it's more like if the individual states had well equipped naval militas. Otoh if member's start breaking away from the SL, we may see many officers in the SLN who will resign from service rather than fight their planets.
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Re: Nationalism in the various solarian militaries.
Post by Fox2!   » Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:17 pm

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feyhunde wrote:
It's a bit different than the case with the SL, as it's more like if the individual states had well equipped naval militas. Otoh if member's start breaking away from the SL, we may see many officers in the SLN who will resign from service rather than fight their planets.


But will the resigning officers be allowed to leave and return to their home worlds? I can see the first group doing so. Later groups, or those with longer journeys home, may find themselves mysteriously "impeded" as they traverse SL space.
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Re: Nationalism in the various solarian militaries.
Post by ThisName1   » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:09 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
feyhunde wrote:
It's a bit different than the case with the SL, as it's more like if the individual states had well equipped naval militas. Otoh if member's start breaking away from the SL, we may see many officers in the SLN who will resign from service rather than fight their planets.


But will the resigning officers be allowed to leave and return to their home worlds? I can see the first group doing so. Later groups, or those with longer journeys home, may find themselves mysteriously "impeded" as they traverse SL space.


Another thing is how will they return to their homeworlds? With the shipping all shot to hell by Manticores seizures I get the feeling that getting back home might be an issue. So I can see opportunistic desertion happening. If your only a system away from your home world and you think you can get transport why not go for it?
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Re: Nationalism in the various solarian militaries.
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:10 pm

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The one certain fact is that there will be a lot of differences. There are over 1500 planets. Each will be somewhat different. So some may be very "Nationalistic" meaning loyalty to planet and others will not.

Chances are those planets close to the center and long time members will be more loyal to the central government but, who knows?

In Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet they'll be more attached to the central government. But on a lot of the planets they'll have very few links.
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Re: Nationalism in the various solarian militaries.
Post by kzt   » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:42 pm

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It's been mentioned that a lot of the SLN officer corps is pretty much hereditary. Not formally, but how it works in practice. "How my family and the people I respect will think of me if I do X" is a pretty big part of how most people work. So they have loyalty to the SLN, but not necessarily to the SL government and SLN high command, which they know is corrupt as hell.
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Re: Nationalism in the various solarian militaries.
Post by saber964   » Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:20 pm

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kzt wrote:It's been mentioned that a lot of the SLN officer corps is pretty much hereditary. Not formally, but how it works in practice. "How my family and the people I respect will think of me if I do X" is a pretty big part of how most people work. So they have loyalty to the SLN, but not necessarily to the SL government and SLN high command, which they know is corrupt as hell.



That is not at all unusual for militaries as a whole. The U.S.Navy has several prominent families in it like the Fletcher's, Porter's, McCain's and Sampson's
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Re: Nationalism in the various solarian militaries.
Post by ldwechsler   » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:39 am

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saber964 wrote:
kzt wrote:It's been mentioned that a lot of the SLN officer corps is pretty much hereditary. Not formally, but how it works in practice. "How my family and the people I respect will think of me if I do X" is a pretty big part of how most people work. So they have loyalty to the SLN, but not necessarily to the SL government and SLN high command, which they know is corrupt as hell.


The key element is not the hereditary officers; it's all the others. And all the rankers. The Battle Fleet as far as I can tell mostly does nothing. The Frontier Fleet has done what fighting needed to be done but until recently they have been in the position of the British (and other European) imperialists. They had the position in space and could kill at will.

A lot of nations in the League will want to be defended if the Grand Alliance really comes in really hard. There will be pressure to pull ships to defend key planets. Alice Truman and Scotty Tremaine talked about that kind of thing fairly early on for Manticore. There would be a real lot of pressure as powerful worlds ensured they had ships while others did not.

THAT could cause a real lot of nasty arguments. If the League does not defend planets, what point does it really have? And the League will fast be running out of money since it is financed by interstellar trade.
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