Oh, what the heck . . .

saber964 wrote:

kzt wrote:Can they run them? Can they get spare parts? Can they get ordinance and other expendables?

IIRC they captured 2 AR 24 AK and 2 AE at Spindle plus Rembrandt and Spindle probably has similar technology for refit and repair if they need anything major done.

Don't forget all those SDs they captured at Spidle and Manticore. They can serve to back up any systems defense pods and LACs. These would deter pirates as well as the SLN using BCs to attack systems.

Those systems deploying SLN SDs won't have to use them for long. Just long enough until the SEM can gets its building up to speed.

Howdy Saber964,

Excellent points!

Then there's the SLN sector base captured in the Meyers system, with all kinds of spare parts, missiles, and other ordnance for the 200+ FF warships the RMN has captured so far, while all the support ships, including troop transports, captured in Manticore from Filaretta's fleet; ought to provide several monthes, if not more than a combined year's worth of supplies, while the 48 SD's in Spindle and the 60 in Manticore also have the other 71 damaged SD's to salvage for anything the dozens of repair and supply ships can't provide.

Personally, I think at least some of the FF ships would make splendid 'Trojans' to visit the verge and shell systems with lots of RD's to check for the Operation Janus victims, those shell systems already wanting to secede, the SL's state of defenses in general, and most militarily critical, those BF reserve fleet anchorage systems.

Once they're gone the SL has only ~200 Battle Squadrons [~1500 left plus those from those Rajani activated from the reserve and those that have completed refits] to defend the whole of the SL; all of almost 1800 systems, even after abandoning the protectorates [though how long will the Mandarins try to avoid that?], it's impossible.

A force with only 5-10% of the GA's power could raid at will throughout the SL, making most of the core world's so terrorized by what could, as opposed to what's actually happened, that they demand the SL give in, now; before they're attacked.

The GA, on the other hand, has the power to end this war in just monthes.

The only reason it might last longer is the time to train more Talbot Quadrant guards and equip them.

If the SLN thought the half million SLN marines in 10th Fleet were enough to control 3 modern populated planets, with almost all in orbit, then 160,000 per Core World [the only ones really enjoying the SL's favoritism] is also possible, then those 200-300 systems at most would require 32-48 million or 0.08-0.12% of the TQ's 40 billion population [16 not 12 systems at 2.5 B each] not 1% which some might consider necessary since that would provide some 1.33-2 million per system.

Keep the good posts coming,

L

saber964 wrote:

kzt wrote:quote="saber964"Let's not overlook the fact that over the past few months the RMN has captured a boatload of SLN escorts that they can sell to verge systems. They may not be up to RMN standard but they could beat the snot out of any potential pirate or typical raiding force from the SLN. I'm sure systems like Meyers would love to buy a mixed squadron of cruisers and a squadron of tin cans.

Can they run them? Can they get spare parts? Can they get ordinance and other expendables?/quote


IIRC they captured 2 AR 24 AK and 2 AE at Spindle plus Rembrandt and Spindle probably has similar technology for refit and repair if they need anything major done.

Howdy Theemile,

The conversion litany is almost endless, and the full capacity was never reached, because by the time the major companies got up to speed in finding subcontractors and integrating them into their assembly lines, they were already producing more than what was required from the ones they already had.

Bruce Catton made the point among others, that war production could have been much higher if mobilization had been more rational and less bogged down in bureaucracy and personalities.

L

Theemile wrote:

saber964 wrote:quote="Brigade XO"So, apparently a sigificant amount of "civilian" manufacturing did survive Oyster Bay at Manticore, along with it's in-place workforce, training systems, schooling and all that support chain of component manufacturing etc.

Well, I know someplace that once-upon-a-time took a serious chunk of it's civilian manufacturing and started cranking out military hardware. Not everything right away but building rifles in plants that made typerwriters (ever seen a 30.06 "Springfield" made by Smith-Corona?) and auto and truck makers making aircraft, you get the point.

So, if nothing else, Manticore could have expanding out commerical facilities to make more tooling to bootstrap up manufacturing for more of the heavy industry at the same time that it started to produce more of the smaller stuff like component parts for replacement parts of military gear.
If nothing else, it can build the orbital facilities to house the soon to be reestablished military manfuacturing and construction facilities./quote
That's not all either, IIRC the American Casket Company was building Waco and Horsa gliders, Singer Sewing Machine was making medium and heavy machine guns, Plaff Sewing Machine company built automobile engines for Willie's Jeeps, Packard Cars made aircraft engines for Rolls Royce

The list of retooled companies in the US in WWII is nearly endless: GM built fighters, Ford built bombers, Chrysler, GM and Ford all built Tanks and Tank destroyers. One of my favorite stories was Tippmann, a company building pneumatic powered leather working equipment in FT Wayne, IN, expanded to build M2 machine guns. After the war they built scaled down versions chambered for .22 long rounds as a limited edition celebrating their past. Now the gun arm builds paintball guns.

saber964 wrote:Let's not overlook the fact that over the past few months the RMN has captured a boatload of SLN escorts that they can sell to verge systems. They may not be up to RMN standard but they could beat the snot out of any potential pirate or typical raiding force from the SLN. I'm sure systems like Meyers would love to buy a mixed squadron of cruisers and a squadron of tin cans.

All of us seem to be overlooking the RHN in these Verge speculations. The RHN needs to make its ships more cost effective. Their current systems are too heavily dependent on manpower. Automating those ships to a larger degree will free up more personnel to work in the private sector. That will make their overall economy more efficient. Now that the SEM is on board, that technology will be available to the RHN.

As the RHN builds newer, more automated ships, their older ships will be available for sale. Those verge systems can make do with SLN light units initially, but can upgrade to better RMN and RHN ships in a few years. The RH will expand the size of their fleet without greatly expanding their personnel. The same is true for the RMN, but to a lesser degree as their already have begun building their more automated ships. Completely replacing their older models will happen within a few years.

Building the support facilities capable of repairing and refitting this disparate stream of naval units is very good training for building up the technological capabilities of a modern economy. By the time this cycle of automation is completed in the GA, the Verge worlds allied to the GA will be ready to begin their own automation cycle and upgrade their ships. Their economies will be expanding nicely to be able to support that effort.

i see alot of best case scenarios here.
i'm looking at a number (large) of "vest pocket empires" and warlordism breaking out across the verge and the shell. i think the caputred solly units(at least the units below the wall) should be given to the newly liberated/indepentend/etc systems that are friendly to the sem/ga. Meyers, Loomis, etc. give them 3 to 6 of destroyers light or heavy cruisers and maybe 1 battle crazier to each system. The sem will get rid of the obsolete trash(from thier perspective) and make great friends by giving these ssytems a defensive force that is better then anything a non SEM/ga system has and helping to bootstrap these newly liberated systems navies can help to stabalize the local enviroment.
do keep in mind there is noway the SEM can be the galaxies police force so

PeterZ wrote:

saber964 wrote:Let's not overlook the fact that over the past few months the RMN has captured a boatload of SLN escorts that they can sell to verge systems. They may not be up to RMN standard but they could beat the snot out of any potential pirate or typical raiding force from the SLN. I'm sure systems like Meyers would love to buy a mixed squadron of cruisers and a squadron of tin cans.

All of us seem to be overlooking the RHN in these Verge speculations. The RHN needs to make its ships more cost effective. Their current systems are too heavily dependent on manpower. Automating those ships to a larger degree will free up more personnel to work in the private sector. That will make their overall economy more efficient. Now that the SEM is on board, that technology will be available to the RHN.

As the RHN builds newer, more automated ships, their older ships will be available for sale. Those verge systems can make do with SLN light units initially, but can upgrade to better RMN and RHN ships in a few years. The RH will expand the size of their fleet without greatly expanding their personnel. The same is true for the RMN, but to a lesser degree as their already have begun building their more automated ships. Completely replacing their older models will happen within a few years.

Building the support facilities capable of repairing and refitting this disparate stream of naval units is very good training for building up the technological capabilities of a modern economy. By the time this cycle of automation is completed in the GA, the Verge worlds allied to the GA will be ready to begin their own automation cycle and upgrade their ships. Their economies will be expanding nicely to be able to support that effort.

Lunan wrote:i see alot of best case scenarios here.
i'm looking at a number (large) of "vest pocket empires" and warlordism breaking out across the verge and the shell. i think the caputred solly units(at least the units below the wall) should be given to the newly liberated/indepentend/etc systems that are friendly to the sem/ga. Meyers, Loomis, etc. give them 3 to 6 of destroyers light or heavy cruisers and maybe 1 battle crazier to each system. The sem will get rid of the obsolete trash(from thier perspective) and make great friends by giving these ssytems a defensive force that is better then anything a non SEM/ga system has and helping to bootstrap these newly liberated systems navies can help to stabalize the local enviroment.
do keep in mind there is noway the SEM can be the galaxies police force so.

No they can't and shouldn't be the galaxy's police force. What I see them trying to do is establish a political and economic sphere that will help them manage the very large cash inflows from their WHJ network. That immediate goal will foster a large collection of nations that will view their emancipation from OFS and economic revival as stemming directly from the GA. Should the final confrontation with the RF and Solarian rump states be postponed long enough, this new assembly of star nations will be large enough to deter any combination of Core World aggressors.

Just how large is that economic sphere? A good question and one likely having a squidgy answer.

PeterZ wrote:The RHN needs to make its ships more cost effective. Their current systems are too heavily dependent on manpower. Automating those ships to a larger degree will free up more personnel to work in the private sector. That will make their overall economy more efficient. Now that the SEM is on board, that technology will be available to the RHN.

No, they don't need to do that. It's not a problem they have. They resemble the SLN, with no real manpower issues. They have well over 100 planets. So somewhere between 100 billion and 500 billion people. So they have on the order of 50-100x as many people to draw their crews from as the RMN. So if their ships take 10x as many crew, if their firepower and survivability is 1/2 that of a similar RMN ship it's OK.

kzt wrote:No, they don't need to do that. It's not a problem they have. They resemble the SLN, with no real manpower issues. They have well over 100 planets. So somewhere between 100 billion and 500 billion people. So they have on the order of 50-100x as many people to draw their crews from as the RMN. So if their ships take 10x as many crew, if their firepower and survivability is 1/2 that of a similar RMN ship it's OK.

Agreed. My point was that by being more automated, more of those incredibly productive people can produce in the private sector. The benefit to the Republic of having that increased production is substantial. Even of those people served in the Republic's merchant marine, the amount of exports those people can support is massive.

Merchantmen crewed with officers holding a reserve commission makes for an available cadre for quick expansions.

PeterZ wrote:

kzt wrote:No, they don't need to do that. It's not a problem they have. They resemble the SLN, with no real manpower issues. They have well over 100 planets. So somewhere between 100 billion and 500 billion people. So they have on the order of 50-100x as many people to draw their crews from as the RMN. So if their ships take 10x as many crew, if their firepower and survivability is 1/2 that of a similar RMN ship it's OK.

Agreed. My point was that by being more automated, more of those incredibly productive people can produce in the private sector. The benefit to the Republic of having that increased production is substantial. Even of those people served in the Republic's merchant marine, the amount of exports those people can support is massive.

Merchantmen crewed with officers holding a reserve commission makes for an available cadre for quick expansions.

It's not just a matter of having enough people to fill all those slots. At some point, especially as you start transitioning into a stable peacetime military, you need to look at cost effectiveness.

In current first world navies, since WWII, there has been a strong trend to reduce the number of sailors on a ship; because sailors are expensive. At some point it's cheaper to invest a little more upfront and in maintenance for a more automated ship so you don't have to pay the direct and indirect costs for all those warm bodies.

Haven likely doesn't need to go to the automation extremes that Manticore did, but I'd be surprised if their new designs weren't somewhat more manpower efficient than the Legisluralist or Peep era designs.

It's not a must, it's a preference.
"We'd like if the crew was smaller. "
"Ok, how much loss of combat power, maintainability or survivability are you willing to accept?"
"None."
Ok, then how much more per ship are willing to spend?"
"None."
"Are you willing for us to spend about 10 years working on a pilot class to see what we can do and how well it works in practice?"
"No."
"Well, then good luck with that."