The logistics of travel and immigration

cthia wrote:I would imagine certain strategies such as manually limiting the search parameters via female/male? And of course the parameters can be lowered further by alphabet. Cachet = C.

Of course many would slip through the cracks of these methods. However, full database comparison would continue within the system throughout your stay and automatic APB's issued. Similar to entering Russia and Nazi Germany. Just because your papers are in order now, doesn't mean that they will continue to be, because we are continuing to reference/cross reference.

What about taggers placed into the bloodstream of off-worlders that would facilitate locating an individual if an APB is issued.

shrug

Sure they can try that but then the false positive issue comes back to bite them in the ass. See my numbers back up thread for the problems faced by an amazingly accurate system.

even for a system that will only flag someone as mr Cachat incorrectly 0.001% of the time in an incomming population of 10 million that is 100 flase positives. If you have 10,000 people on your watch list then you end up having to investigate 1 million people entering Sol. This is too many for even the most paranoid of police states to keep track of and this is assuming a technology that is over 5 orders of magnatude more accurate than current tech!

Any identity system has 2 parameters that matter.

False negatives (not identifying a genuine suspect) and flase positives (identifying someone as a suspect who isn't)

Most people (and especially politicians) assume the important factor is false negatives but actually false positives are by far the bigger issue.

to make matters worse these 2 values are inextricably linked by the fundamental maths of these systems in an inverse way.

If you reduce your false negatives you inevitably increase your false positive rate. However if you reduce your false positive rate you inevitably increase your false negative rate.

These are actually concepts originating from epidemiology and medical tests. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivi ... pecificity for more of the gory details

Somtaaw wrote:...

That'd be like someone automatically arresting Michelle, simply because as an RMN officer, the very first time she went through a standard medical test, "GENIE ALERT! GENIE ALERT!" alarms go off, despite being a Winton and thus in the SKM since it began.

Which is almost exactly the same situation the majority of those Mesan Alignment infiltrators are, they've been on their specific worlds for so long, nobody would even think to cross-check against anything more than generic medical data, and not the separate "freed genetic slave" databanks.

Now when you couple the sleeper insertion data, with the information we got when the heads of state met with Detweiler? [Mission of Honor, Ch 39, not quoting simply to save space, will if desired] Some had a profound musical talent which manifested from singing to guitar playing, others have a tendency to sports from fencing to swimming, others were adrenaline junkies. Some were really tall and built like warriors, others were so petite to look like dolls.


That is a lot of variation, and given how long ago they inserted into those various worlds, you can be pretty darn sure those 'mods', were stripped out from the generic slave pool that gets sold, which means unlikely anyone has recent data on those mods outside of the family/families in question.

So you'd have to have medical technicians archiving centuries worth of slave mods, whether they're still active or not, AND then become suspicious enough to run a detailed comparison. Except why would you run a comparison on a family who's been on your planet doing X for literally centuries, against an archive of ancient freed slave genetic data?

This actually raises another question: were the Winton mods done before they left Old Earth or were they done later?

Presumably in the Honorverse Beowulf and Mesa represent the two most advanced technological bases when it comes to human gengineering. Beowulf has draconian ethics rules which limit what can be done to and with human DNA -- for very good reasons, I think. Based on that, if one found exotic DNA modifications that violated the Beowulf Code a good geneticist would almost automatically suspect such modifications came from Mesa.

Given also that the Beowulfers and the Mesans don't talk to each other and are very unlikely to share research results, over time (and remember we are talking centuries here) I would suspect that a distinctive "style" to their respective genmods would develop. At a minimum, a well-trained Beowulfer geneticists would be able to conclusively state that a given genmod was certainly not developed by Beowulf or Beowulf-trained geneticists. Think of it as a "not invented here" syndrome taken to an extreme, and done so for literally centuries.

From a lot of places in the book it is implied that the Mesan genetic modifications are also much more extreme (and often seem to have negative side effects) than the scientists of Beowulf would be comfortable with.

I'd agree that it is unlikely in the extreme that someone at any given time would stumble over this. What I'm arguing is that over a span of centuries on dozens, if not hundreds, of different planets that unlikely event would probably be extremely likely to happen at least once.

Even today, with our comparatively primitive abilities (remember that DNA was discovered within living memory of many people alive today), we can glean a lot from looking at our DNA. We can see population bottlenecks, including one that happened around 75000 years ago when our ancestral population was reduced to only a thousand or so individuals -- and much later ones, such as the one associated with Native Americans colonizing the New World, where apparently only a few hundred individuals made the journey. I'd guess that two thousand years on we would be able to read a lot more out of DNA than we can today.

The appalling thing is the likely difference in the Customs on various planets. In the League the fast track is the line of "paying" customers. Customs in the Verge is likely a very scary thing. Also, I wouldn't think that the same technologies (or methods employed) are available across the board on all planets.

The freighter loads of tourists bound for Beowulf are probably a colorful lot. I wonder how Customs changes during time of war? High threat levels. You would think that it'd be orders of magnitude harder to smuggle weapons onto a planet in the Honorverse but that doesn't seem to be the case if you ask Firebrand? I suppose the system matters.

Was that a serious Customs failure on Torch which led to a successful assassination. Wouldn't you have to state your purpose - business, tourist or espionage if you're an off-worlder? And iirc, the assassination was pulled off by someone selling perfumes? Weren't the perfumes at least given a cursory check?

Some countries require exit visas. In the Honorverse you should be required to obtain a departure visa where your agenda may be cross checked as well as possible.

I would assume that not all systems have extensive databases of their residents DNA.

Systems that regressed for one reason or another and do not have the capability.

Systems that put personal privacy paramount and never started a database.

cthia wrote:Was that a serious Customs failure on Torch which led to a successful assassination. Wouldn't you have to state your purpose - business, tourist or espionage if you're an off-worlder? And iirc, the assassination was pulled off by someone selling perfumes? Weren't the perfumes at least given a cursory check?

The story explained how they were given a very thorough check - but they'd been custom designed by a high tech advisory with governmental resources to specifically beat the most rigorous checks.
Each perfume was individually harmless - it was only when they combined that they interacted and became lethal. Attempting to test every combination of materials brought through security - either directly or by computational chemistry - is infeasable...

George J. Smith wrote:I would assume that not all systems have extensive databases of their residents DNA.

Systems that regressed for one reason or another and do not have the capability.

Systems that put personal privacy paramount and never started a database.

We have a perfect example in the Split System as described in Shadow of Saganaki. When the Kornati National Police think they may have killed Agnes Nordbrandt,there's a discussion amongst Baroness Medusa's and Admiral Khumalo's advisors on the lines of "how can they possibly not know for certain?" The clincher was when they ask the senior Marine medical officer, who says that from what remained of the body she could most certainly identify a Manticoran citizen, but that Kornatian physicians did not routinely keep DNA samples and there was no national database. Of course DW adds to the mix that there's not enough left to use dental records, and Nordbrandt was an adopted foundling so they can't match to DNA from relatives either.

Can you imagine what the Harringtons had to endure emigrating to Sphinx? I wonder what the citizenship requirements and the citizenship test is like? I am sure that questions include familiarity with the local fauna. You certainly wouldn't want your new immigrants to become "tourist food" for the hexapumas. There is probably a recent clause inserted that demand one's acknowledgement of the treecats as a sentient species. And denies citizenship if one resists.

But in those tests and immigration requirements, I can't believe a planet with such a higher G gravity doesn't at least enquire if not require one's proof that one can survive its gravity at length without succumbing to its long term effects and possibly becoming casualty(s) and or burdens to the planet.

Unless, of course, that the Harringtons did divulge that information to the "proper authorities" who in turn guarantee privacy and a somewhat nondiscriminatory policy -- one whose acceptance is not predicated on gene mods.

Certainly planets with 1.5 G and above like San Martin's 2.7 G could be considered irresponsible in accepting someone's application for citizenship if they are normally aspirated humans.

Work visas and tourists are probably severely limited or restricted in some form or fashion.

cthia wrote:Can you imagine what the Harringtons had to endure emigrating to Sphinx? I wonder what the citizenship requirements and the citizenship test is like? I am sure that questions include familiarity with the local fauna. You certainly wouldn't want your new immigrants to become "tourist food" for the hexapumas. There is probably a recent clause inserted that demand one's acknowledgement of the treecats as a sentient species. And denies citizenship if one resists.

But in those tests and immigration requirements, I can't believe a planet with such a higher G gravity doesn't at least enquire if not require one's proof that one can survive its gravity at length without succumbing to its long term effects and possibly becoming casualty(s) and or burdens to the planet.

Unless, of course, that the Harringtons did divulge that information to the "proper authorities" who in turn guarantee privacy and a somewhat nondiscriminatory policy -- one whose acceptance is not predicated on gene mods.

Certainly planets with 1.5 G and above like San Martin's 2.7 G could be considered irresponsible in accepting someone's application for citizenship if they are normally aspirated humans.

Work visas and tourists are probably severely limited or restricted in some form or fashion.

Different nations have different citizenship tests and requirements. E.g. most countries in Europe have no birthright citizenship like the U.S. dose. But in Manticore's case they probably have certain requirements like employment before immigration. Refugees probably get limited support like six months of assistance to find employment or support while undergoing job training. IIRC the Adcock family in HoS has a good description also the Bu9 Letter from Stephanie had some stuff on immigration to Sphinx and the SKM.

cthia wrote:Can you imagine what the Harringtons had to endure emigrating to Sphinx? I wonder what the citizenship requirements and the citizenship test is like? I am sure that questions include familiarity with the local fauna. You certainly wouldn't want your new immigrants to become "tourist food" for the hexapumas. There is probably a recent clause inserted that demand one's acknowledgement of the treecats as a sentient species. And denies citizenship if one resists.

But in those tests and immigration requirements, I can't believe a planet with such a higher G gravity doesn't at least enquire if not require one's proof that one can survive its gravity at length without succumbing to its long term effects and possibly becoming casualty(s) and or burdens to the planet.

Unless, of course, that the Harringtons did divulge that information to the "proper authorities" who in turn guarantee privacy and a somewhat nondiscriminatory policy -- one whose acceptance is not predicated on gene mods.

Certainly planets with 1.5 G and above like San Martin's 2.7 G could be considered irresponsible in accepting someone's application for citizenship if they are normally aspirated humans.

Work visas and tourists are probably severely limited or restricted in some form or fashion.

Read Honorverse Tech Bu9 by David Weber and Ken Burnside in Free Short Stories 2011.

cthia wrote:Can you imagine what the Harringtons had to endure emigrating to Sphinx? I wonder what the citizenship requirements and the citizenship test is like? I am sure that questions include familiarity with the local fauna. You certainly wouldn't want your new immigrants to become "tourist food" for the hexapumas. There is probably a recent clause inserted that demand one's acknowledgement of the treecats as a sentient species. And denies citizenship if one resists.

But in those tests and immigration requirements, I can't believe a planet with such a higher G gravity doesn't at least enquire if not require one's proof that one can survive its gravity at length without succumbing to its long term effects and possibly becoming casualty(s) and or burdens to the planet.

Unless, of course, that the Harringtons did divulge that information to the "proper authorities" who in turn guarantee privacy and a somewhat nondiscriminatory policy -- one whose acceptance is not predicated on gene mods.

Certainly planets with 1.5 G and above like San Martin's 2.7 G could be considered irresponsible in accepting someone's application for citizenship if they are normally aspirated humans.

Work visas and tourists are probably severely limited or restricted in some form or fashion.

I'd assume immigration was handled on a Kingdom rather than planetary level, so it's unlikely you'd need to demonstrate an ability to survive on Sphinx specifically in order to get citizenship (Manticore is a lot more hospitable).