Issues with the Wayfarer's Armament

robert132 wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Yep, a glass cannon hidden in the fleet train shuttling supplies to the Trevor's Stsr front. If nearby when Peep BCs try to smash through the convoys screening CLs or CAs they roll pods and help swat them away... At least that seems to have been the original plan.

That was the general idea behind the British Royal Navy adding AMCs to the North Atlantic convoys early in WWII, something better able to deal with the AMC raiders that the Germans sent out early in the war than the sloops and frigates that made up the (very slim) bulk of the RN's convoy escorts. The little guys carried depth charges for ASW work but pee shooter guns while the AMCs carried heavier metal, sometimes as heavy as old 6" pieces, though normally the weapons would be in the range of 4" to 5".

If a regular warship like a CA or Battlecruiser like Scharnhorst showed up then the AMC would be totally out classed and out gunned and would be doing well simply to keep the enemy warship busy while the convoy scattered. HMS Rawalpindi (AMC) met her end delaying Scharnhorst AND sister Gneisenau while her convoy made smoke and scattered.

Frankly, I like the idea of an AMC like Wayfarer being able to uncork a shipkilling surprise like those pods and still have the LACs available to bolster her own anti-missle defenses or cover another convoy sector.

Don't forget HMAMS Jervis Bay.

IMHO The Trojan class were a mix of the RN's stop gap measures in he early part of WWII, namely the CAM MAC and AMC. CAM stands for Catapult Armed Merchant
MAC stands for Merchant Aircraft Carrier

The MAC's were tankers and grain ships with flight decks instead of a superstructure they could carry up to four Swordfish TB.

saber964 wrote:

robert132 wrote:
That was the general idea behind the British Royal Navy adding AMCs to the North Atlantic convoys early in WWII, something better able to deal with the AMC raiders that the Germans sent out early in the war than the sloops and frigates that made up the (very slim) bulk of the RN's convoy escorts. The little guys carried depth charges for ASW work but pee shooter guns while the AMCs carried heavier metal, sometimes as heavy as old 6" pieces, though normally the weapons would be in the range of 4" to 5".

If a regular warship like a CA or Battlecruiser like Scharnhorst showed up then the AMC would be totally out classed and out gunned and would be doing well simply to keep the enemy warship busy while the convoy scattered. HMS Rawalpindi (AMC) met her end delaying Scharnhorst AND sister Gneisenau while her convoy made smoke and scattered.

Frankly, I like the idea of an AMC like Wayfarer being able to uncork a shipkilling surprise like those pods and still have the LACs available to bolster her own anti-missle defenses or cover another convoy sector.

Don't forget HMAMS Jervis Bay.

IMHO The Trojan class were a mix of the RN's stop gap measures in he early part of WWII, namely the CAM MAC and AMC. CAM stands for Catapult Armed Merchant
MAC stands for Merchant Aircraft Carrier

The MAC's were tankers and grain ships with flight decks instead of a superstructure they could carry up to four Swordfish TB.

I'd forgotten about the CAM ships. Can you imagine the "pucker factor" that goes along with being launched from a ship KNOWING that win or lose you were going into the icy North Atlantic, no chance of landing on solid ground or on a flight deck? I doff my battered and salt stained Dixie cup hat to those guys.

All three (MAC, CAM and AMC) were "fill the gap" expedients because there just weren't enough warships to go around. The need brought about the development of the USN and Brit Escort Carriers and crash building programs for destroyer and smaller ASW ships. But you already know that.

I've been out on the N.Atlantic and up the Denmark Strait into the Artic Ocean in winter storms. I have trouble imagining ANY sailor hoping or praying for weather like that to protect him from U-Boats and the Luftwaffe. The ship I was riding at the time was USS Nassau(LHA 4,) a 40,000 ton bucket about the same size as an Essex class carrier though not as graceful. We were tossed around like a kid's bathtub toy in a washing machine, 40 to 60 foot waves with hurricane winds and -20 degree temps.

Those were the good old days. *Sigh*

robert132 wrote:

saber964"uote="robert132 wrote:
That was the general idea behind the British Royal Navy adding AMCs to the North Atlantic convoys early in WWII, something better able to deal with the AMC raiders that the Germans sent out early in the war than the sloops and frigates that made up the (very slim) bulk of the RN's convoy escorts. The little guys carried depth charges for ASW work but pee shooter guns while the AMCs carried heavier metal, sometimes as heavy as old 6" pieces, though normally the weapons would be in the range of 4" to 5".

If a regular warship like a CA or Battlecruiser like Scharnhorst showed up then the AMC would be totally out classed and out gunned and would be doing well simply to keep the enemy warship busy while the convoy scattered. HMS Rawalpindi (AMC) met her end delaying Scharnhorst AND sister Gneisenau while her convoy made smoke and scattered.

Frankly, I like the idea of an AMC like Wayfarer being able to uncork a shipkilling surprise like those pods and still have the LACs available to bolster her own anti-missle defenses or cover another convoy sector.

Don't forget HMAMS Jervis Bay.

IMHO The Trojan class were a mix of the RN's stop gap measures in he early part of WWII, namely the CAM MAC and AMC. CAM stands for Catapult Armed Merchant
MAC stands for Merchant Aircraft Carrier

The MAC's were tankers and grain ships with flight decks instead of a superstructure they could carry up to four Swordfish TB.

I'd forgotten about the CAM ships. Can you imagine the "pucker factor" that goes along with being launched from a ship KNOWING that win or lose you were going into the icy North Atlantic, no chance of landing on solid ground or on a flight deck? I doff my battered and salt stained Dixie cup hat to those guys.

All three (MAC, CAM and AMC) were "fill the gap" expedients because there just weren't enough warships to go around. The need brought about the development of the USN and Brit Escort Carriers and crash building programs for destroyer and smaller ASW ships. But you already know that.

I've been out on the N.Atlantic and up the Denmark Strait into the Artic Ocean in winter storms. I have trouble imagining ANY sailor hoping or praying for weather like that to protect him from U-Boats and the Luftwaffe. The ship I was riding at the time was USS Nassau(LHA 4,) a 40,000 ton bucket about the same size as an Essex class carrier though not as graceful. We were tossed around like a kid's bathtub toy in a washing machine, 40 to 60 foot waves with hurricane winds and -20 degree temps.

Those were the good old days. *Sigh* [/quote]



I feel you, my handle is where I served. USS Paul F Foster (DD-964). During my two deployments including Desert Shield and Storm, I experienced two tropical cyclones three typhoons and three Pacific hurricanes. Oh and one volcanic eruption and two or three earthquakes.

saber964 wrote:I feel you, my handle is where I served. USS Paul F Foster (DD-964). During my two deployments including Desert Shield and Storm, I experienced two tropical cyclones three typhoons and three Pacific hurricanes. Oh and one volcanic eruption and two or three earthquakes.

In 21 years in the Canoe Club I only served in two ships. I retired off the Nassau in '93, my first ship was Caron (DD 970.)

When I found out I had to return to sea I tried everything I knew to go back to Caron or, barring that to another Spru-can. Looking back now, while my tour in Nassau wasn't bad I would have preferred the 'can.

CTA1(SW)

robert132 wrote:

saber964 wrote:I feel you, my handle is where I served. USS Paul F Foster (DD-964). During my two deployments including Desert Shield and Storm, I experienced two tropical cyclones three typhoons and three Pacific hurricanes. Oh and one volcanic eruption and two or three earthquakes.

In 21 years in the Canoe Club I only served in two ships. I retired off the Nassau in '93, my first ship was Caron (DD 970.)

When I found out I had to return to sea I tried everything I knew to go back to Caron or, barring that to another Spru-can. Looking back now, while my tour in Nassau wasn't bad I would have preferred the 'can.

CTA1(SW)

Join the tin can sailor FB page. The thing I like is my ship is the last Spruence class left all of the rest are scrap or were targets. She is the current NTDS ship. We are currently working on getting her as a memorial when she is finally decommissioned.

saber964 wrote:

Join the tin can sailor FB page. The thing I like is my ship is the last Spruence class left all of the rest are scrap or were targets. She is the current NTDS ship. We are currently working on getting her as a memorial when she is finally decommissioned.

What they did to the Sprucans was a crime. Decades worth of life left on them, and plenty of room for growth. They should have taken the Sprucans and the Kidds and rebuilt them as something like a Burke with new superstructure and updated engine rooms and replaced the mk 26s on the first 5 Ticos with mk 41s. Instead, we have 40 less kick-a$$ hulls which weren't even placed into reserve if needed.

Theemile wrote:

saber964 wrote:

Join the tin can sailor FB page. The thing I like is my ship is the last Spruence class left all of the rest are scrap or were targets. She is the current NTDS ship. We are currently working on getting her as a memorial when she is finally decommissioned.

What they did to the Sprucans was a crime. Decades worth of life left on them, and plenty of room for growth. They should have taken the Sprucans and the Kidds and rebuilt them as something like a Burke with new superstructure and updated engine rooms and replaced the mk 26s on the first 5 Ticos with mk 41s. Instead, we have 40 less kick-a$$ hulls which weren't even placed into reserve if needed.

Very true, they didn't even give ship associations a chance to save a few of them. The navy almost immediately listed them for disposal and scraping. The only ships that we could save now are the Foster and the 4 Kidd class which are currently part of the Taiwanese navy.

saber964 wrote:

Theemile wrote:
What they did to the Sprucans was a crime. Decades worth of life left on them, and plenty of room for growth. They should have taken the Sprucans and the Kidds and rebuilt them as something like a Burke with new superstructure and updated engine rooms and replaced the mk 26s on the first 5 Ticos with mk 41s. Instead, we have 40 less kick-a$$ hulls which weren't even placed into reserve if needed.

Very true, they didn't even give ship associations a chance to save a few of them. The navy almost immediately listed them for disposal and scraping. The only ships that we could save now are the Foster and the 4 Kidd class which are currently part of the Taiwanese navy.

I'm glad the Foster is the new target ship, but I'm surprised they didn't use a Perry instead, being cheaper to run. Of course I still think they should have given the FFGs a VLS upgrade as well.

As we all know, the sprucans, the FFGs, and the Ticos got in the way of the DD21, the CG21, and the LCS , so someone with a bent calculator proved that the Navy could save $1.73 if they scrapped the ships early, only to have all 3 programs trip over their own puds and leave us in the shape we are in. F'in politics... <rant/off>

Well they were not transformational enough. The Little Crappy Ships and the unarmed billion dollar destroyer without a volume search radar will lead us into the future.

kzt wrote:Well they were not transformational enough. The Little Crappy Ships and the unarmed billion dollar destroyer without a volume search radar will lead us into the future.

It's not completely unarmed. Of course, it will require an unfunded software rewrite to fire SM2, SM3 or SM6, Harpoons won't fit in it's VLS pods, no CWIS or SeaRAM units and congress axed funding for the production of the expensive ammo that is required for it's 2 fancy guns. But the .50 cal and 30mm Bushmaster guns can chew up rowboats real good....