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Last use for SL SD captured

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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by robert132   » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:32 pm

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The E wrote:
robert132 wrote:I think it safer to say that a shipyard capable of BUILDING an SD can service them but it doesn't necessarily require the capability of building one to service it, including opening the hull for major work.


True, but the sort of work we're talking about here is, in terms of complexity, comparable to a full RCOH cycle on a nuclear carrier, which I think is something Norfolk doesn't do (Please correct me if I'm wrong)


I don't think you're wrong on that, but a refueling on a CVN is about the only maintenance work they don't do. That yard is capable of just about everything else.

On the other hand, Service Life Extension Program work on anything but a nuclear power plant is within their capability, that work could include replacing the superstructure and electronic fit of just about any conventional warship. Before it closed, the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard (similar capabilities) took the cruiser Belknap in hand after the carrier JFK ran her over and completely rebuilt that gutted ship, rebuilding or replacing every major system and her superstructure, rebuilding her to updated standards.

In a lot of cases though, major work like a SLEP or RCOH is no longer an economically viable alternative to simply starting with an empty building way and starting from scratch. The SLEP / RCOH would cost nearly as much or more than building new and take nearly as long or longer to complete.

Rebuilding or overhauling any or all of those former SLN SDs, while technically possible probably fits into that category, it ain't worth the cost or effort.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:48 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:That does not mean that the ENTIRE hull is covered in armor - armor is mounted in belts, the ship has a belt of armor along each side and (apparently - according to wiki) along the top and bottom - which would be a useless waste of mass since the weight of this armor could be moved to the sides and add more protection where incoming fire is likely to impact instead of protecting a non-target area, anyway, there would still be sections of the hull between the belts that would be unarmored - not a burrito-wrap of armor all the way around - talk about a complete waste of mass.
The top and bottom are less commonly hit, but they're definitely at risk. Even from the broadside a laserhead going off a bit above or below the direct plane of the broadside can hit the dorsal or venteral side of the ship. After all on an SD the wedge is roughly 57 km above or below those surfaces, and only extends out 150 km from the broadside. That leaves a roughly 20 degree angle of view onto those surfaces.

And a laserhead detonating directly ahead of the ship is even worse because up there the opening is 190 km wide (85 km above and below the ship) and the hammerhead isn't much wider than the ship's maximum beam - so you don't have to be all that far above, or below, the ships line or travel to be able to skim past it and hit the vulnerable top and bottom.


Now those shots aren't going to be able to smash as deeply into the hull as a perpendicular shot would; but if the ship has the mass to spare you still want some armor there to minimize the damage spread.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by The E   » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:16 pm

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That does not mean that the ENTIRE hull is covered in armor - armor is mounted in belts, the ship has a belt of armor along each side and (apparently - according to wiki) along the top and bottom - which would be a useless waste of mass since the weight of this armor could be moved to the sides and add more protection where incoming fire is likely to impact instead of protecting a non-target area, anyway, there would still be sections of the hull between the belts that would be unarmored - not a burrito-wrap of armor all the way around - talk about a complete waste of mass.


Okay. Even if we grant all that, even if we assume that it is not only possible but actually practical to dig into an SD, rip out all the main battery missile mounts and their magazines and replace them with something capable of firing useful munitions, or at the very least replace the fire control equipment with stuff that can interface with pod-based weaponry, the big question standing in the room is still whether the economic and strategic situation warrants doing this.

And that's just for a simple case of rebuilding an SD into something analoguous to the Nike BC(L)'s, i.e. a ship capable of firing useful salvoes of MDMs from internal magazines (which is something that Manticore actually did do on a few Gryphons, if I recall correctly, before deciding that the cost involved compares badly to just building more SD(P)s).

Skimper has repeatedly suggested rebuilding these ships into something completely different, like fitting them with substantial LAC carrying capability. The books tell us, explicitly, that CLACs are built with a completely different layout of the spaces outside their core hull compared to a classical Superdreadnought, there is substantial work to be done if they are supposed to launch LACs in a practical way (i.e. without having to shut down their own wedge while doing so). They also tell us that, for similar reasons, building ships with internal pod magazines requires a substantial rethinking of the placement of internal components.

These are all things that are undoubtedly possible to do, assuming that there is literally nothing better that the shipyards and their workers could be doing instead. But that is really, really not the case in the Honorverse at the moment. These proposed projects all fail the simple question of what would be more practical: Either build a completely new ship, or refurbish these old ones. You can't really do both.

finally the ships weapons have to be able to fire OUT of the armor, the hull, though armored over much of the area CANNOT be armored where weapons or sensors (or nodes etc...) are mounted those section of the ship are unarmored and can be used to remove the same equipment that is suppose to extend through it anyway. the Burrito-wrap ship you suggest would be an inefficient combat vessel with limited armor where its actually needed, superfluous protection where it can do no good in a normal engagement and be impossible to repair after an engagement, since all of your equipment is so block off by armor that you can't remove damage (or even worn-out) equipment after a battle or even during refits or mid-life upgrades. all ships are designed to be able to be refit and upgraded with limited underfinance from the ships own structure. How did they get the equipment in-place in the first place?


You need to be aware of a few things which you apparently haven't realized. The ships you are talking about were all built and designed in an era where combat paradigms had essentially stabilized. For 200 years or more (I think the Scientist class dates that far back?), there were no significant advances that substantially altered the combat environment (the last significant advance, the laser head, could be addressed with a comparatively minor update to the point defence and EW suites of the ships involved). The major systems on board these ships, the main energy battery weapons and missile launchers and their assorted support structures, literally did not need to be changed at all in order to keep these ships viable in combat.
So, with that in mind, it is entirely possible for SLN naval designers to build these systems in a way that would make replacement harder, but make the ships more resilient over all, which would certainly fit in with the mindset these people were operating under.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MaxxQ   » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:48 pm

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MAD-4A wrote: How did they get the equipment in-place in the first place?


I'm going to only respond to this.

The internal equipment (anything too big to fit through corridors) is placed in position, held with a framework, and then the armor is GROWN around it, including the internal framework. No seams, no welds, no joints of any kind. I've said this before, but you simply ignore that.

IOW, even for an RMN ship, it's a PITA to swap out major components by RMN facilities. There's textev for that: see Paul Tankersley and Honor discussing replacing the reactor.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by munroburton   » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:02 pm

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Armoured burrito is a pretty good description for this.

Anduril-class superdreadnought

Mass: 7,506,000 tons
Dimensions: 1324 × 192 × 179 m
Acceleration: 413.3 G (4.053 kps²)
80% Accel: 330.6 G (3.242 kps²)
Broadside: 29M, 22L, 24G, 1GL, 8ET, 24CM, 32PD
Chase: 6M, 7L, 6G, 8CM, 12PD
Number Built: 14
Service Life: 1889–1918


The Anduril-class was one of the shorter-lived designs of Roger’s buildup, for two reasons. First, the older, cheaper Gladiator-class dreadnought had nearly the same capabilities for a considerably lower cost. Second, the Navy had come to the realization that missile combats were poised to become far more decisive than they had been at any time in the last two centuries, which moved the design trend towards more balanced combatants and away from brawlers like the Anduril.

While over 400,000 tons heavier than the King William, all of that extra tonnage was devoted to heavier armor and passive defenses. The Anduril’s distinction as the most heavily armored warship in the history of the RMN came at the cost of the offensive (missile) and defensive armament the Navy had come to value.

In addition, the heavy armor and internal compartmentalization had a hidden cost in terms of maintenance and downtime. Many systems, while well protected, were difficult to maintain, with too few accessways for movement of personnel and repair parts. Over the lifetime of the class, many pieces of equipment were simply abandoned in place rather than upgraded, due to the inability of the shipyard workers to install the new systems without cutting through a significant amount of hull armor.

The difficulty in upgrades, during a time when the Navy was undergoing generational changes in weapons systems literally every few years, was a death knell for the class. The Andurils were one of the first ships decommissioned during the Janacek build down, and a number of them were sold to Erewhon with the King Williams.


Granted, SLN SDs are easier than Andurils, but it's still no small undertaking.

Jonathan_S did a nice job explaining why they have to armour the tops and bottoms of ships a little. A picture says a thousand words, though, so check this out.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/images/wedge.gif
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Vince   » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:53 pm

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munroburton wrote:Armoured burrito is a pretty good description for this.

Anduril-class superdreadnought

Mass: 7,506,000 tons
Dimensions: 1324 × 192 × 179 m
Acceleration: 413.3 G (4.053 kps²)
80% Accel: 330.6 G (3.242 kps²)
Broadside: 29M, 22L, 24G, 1GL, 8ET, 24CM, 32PD
Chase: 6M, 7L, 6G, 8CM, 12PD
Number Built: 14
Service Life: 1889–1918


The Anduril-class was one of the shorter-lived designs of Roger’s buildup, for two reasons. First, the older, cheaper Gladiator-class dreadnought had nearly the same capabilities for a considerably lower cost. Second, the Navy had come to the realization that missile combats were poised to become far more decisive than they had been at any time in the last two centuries, which moved the design trend towards more balanced combatants and away from brawlers like the Anduril.

While over 400,000 tons heavier than the King William, all of that extra tonnage was devoted to heavier armor and passive defenses. The Anduril’s distinction as the most heavily armored warship in the history of the RMN came at the cost of the offensive (missile) and defensive armament the Navy had come to value.

In addition, the heavy armor and internal compartmentalization had a hidden cost in terms of maintenance and downtime. Many systems, while well protected, were difficult to maintain, with too few accessways for movement of personnel and repair parts. Over the lifetime of the class, many pieces of equipment were simply abandoned in place rather than upgraded, due to the inability of the shipyard workers to install the new systems without cutting through a significant amount of hull armor.

The difficulty in upgrades, during a time when the Navy was undergoing generational changes in weapons systems literally every few years, was a death knell for the class. The Andurils were one of the first ships decommissioned during the Janacek build down, and a number of them were sold to Erewhon with the King Williams.


Granted, SLN SDs are easier than Andurils, but it's still no small undertaking.

Jonathan_S did a nice job explaining why they have to armour the tops and bottoms of ships a little. A picture says a thousand words, though, so check this out.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/images/wedge.gif

I suspect that the Andurils were built with the RMN's new armor that was formed in place. Just looking at the earliest service life of the Andurils and the Reliants, the Anduril-class SD entered service only 7 T-years before the Reliant-class BC.

First mention of the new armor that was formed in place (aboard Nike, a Reliant-class BC):
The Short Victorious War, Chapter 10 wrote:Honor nodded in agreement. The R&D types' latest armor—a complex ceramic and metal alloy unbelievably light for its volume and toughness—was formed in place as part of the basic hull matrix, not added on later. That gave it vastly improved integrity against damage but meant there were no convenient sections to pull in the event of repairs. On the other hand, armor, however light, still used mass. No warship had that to waste, and since a warship's impeller wedge protected it against fire from above or below, BuShips' designers armored the inner areas of its top and bottom lightly or not at all in order to maximize protection elsewhere.
House of Steel, The Royal Manticoran Navy, Order of Battle, BATTLECRUISERS (BC) wrote:Reliant-class battlecruiser
Mass: 877,500 tons
Dimensions: 712 × 90 × 80 m
Acceleration: 488.7 G (4.792 kps²)
80% Accel: 390.9 G (3.834 kps²)
Broadside: 22M, 8L, 6G, 2ET, 10CM, 10PD
Chase: 4M, 1L, 2G, 6CM, 6PD
Number Built: 95
Service Life: 1896–present

The Reliant is only five percent larger than a Homer but is a far more capable platform. While perhaps not as revolutionary for battlecruisers as the Star Knight was for a heavy cruiser, they are still extremely capable warships and ideally suited to the fast, slashing tactics that the Royal Manticoran Navy has embraced for over four T-centuries. They are the first units below the wall fitted with fully integrated modern armor materials. While these materials offered improved laser/graser absorption and far better secondary mechanical and thermal properties, they are difficult to nanoform, requiring specialized coded chemical catalyst gear and careful environmental control to emplace or replace.
Designed from the keel out as a squadron flagship, the Reliant class has three boat bays with reserved visitor space for up to four additional pinnaces. Early in the First Havenite War, the few Reliants in service were most often found leading squadrons of older Homers and Redoubtables. As the wartime construction programs accelerated, they rapidly began to replace those earlier classes in frontline service.
Italics are the authors', boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.
They are the first units below the wall fitted with fully integrated modern armor materials.
This tells me that the RMN used its new armor on ships of the wall, before applying it to ships below the wall.
BuShips' designers armored the inner areas of its top and bottom lightly* or not at all**

* Probably capital ships--ships of the wall and battleships (when the RMN still had BBs), and the Nike-class battlecruisers.

** Probably battlecruisers and below, prior to the Nike-class battlecruisers. I suspect the Agamemnon-class BC(P) doesn't have any top or bottom armor, even at 1,750,750 tons (House of Steel):
Despite accepting a design with nearly twice the mass of a conventional battlecruiser, the designers were still forced to make fundamental sacrifices to fit in the pod core and other weaponry.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by munroburton   » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:48 am

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That's possible, Vince. However, consider this.

The new armour was the 'latest' in 1904. Nike was probably laid down in 1902. It's never been established whether that was within the Flight I or II cycles.

If the original Reliant had had the same armouring, then I suspect HMS Fearless(CA-286) should have had it. That was a brand new ship commissioned in 1901. Furthermore, none of the Star Knights were older than seven or eight years at the time of On Basilisk Station - which reminds us Warlock was refitted only a few years into her service life.

Paul Tankersley wouldn't still be working the bugs out if Reliant had been armoured with the 'latest' stuff. Reliant's maintenance schedule should have had it in yard hands before Nike was even laid down.

Note - this doesn't rule out the idea that Andurils were the first to get the new, grown-in-place armour. Just that they didn't start using it on sub-wall warships until the 1900s.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Vince   » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:07 pm

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munroburton wrote:That's possible, Vince. However, consider this.

The new armour was the 'latest' in 1904. Nike was probably laid down in 1902. It's never been established whether that was within the Flight I or II cycles.

If the original Reliant had had the same armouring, then I suspect HMS Fearless(CA-286) should have had it. That was a brand new ship commissioned in 1901. Furthermore, none of the Star Knights were older than seven or eight years at the time of On Basilisk Station - which reminds us Warlock was refitted only a few years into her service life.

Paul Tankersley wouldn't still be working the bugs out if Reliant had been armoured with the 'latest' stuff. Reliant's maintenance schedule should have had it in yard hands before Nike was even laid down.

Note - this doesn't rule out the idea that Andurils were the first to get the new, grown-in-place armour. Just that they didn't start using it on sub-wall warships until the 1900s.

Honor reading herself aboard Nike:
The Short Victorious War, Chapter 2 wrote:" 'From Admiral Sir Lucien Cortez, Fifth Space Lord, Royal Manticoran Navy, to Captain Dame Honor Harrington, Countess Harrington, KCR, MC, SG, DSO, CGM, Royal Manticoran Navy, Twenty-First Day, Sixth Month, Year Two Hundred and Eighty-Two After Landing. Madam: You are hereby directed and required to proceed aboard Her Majesty's Starship Nike, BC-Four-One-Three, there to take upon yourself the duties and responsibilities of commanding officer in the service of the Crown. Fail not in this charge at your peril. By order of Lady Francine Maurier, Baroness Morncreek, First Lord of Admiralty, Royal Manticoran Navy, for Her Majesty the Queen.' "
Italics are the author's, boldface text is my emphasis (and indicates the date the orders were issued, with Honor actually taking command slightly later).

Using the date of Landing (Manticore) provided in House of Steel: March 21, 1416 PD, the number of T-years in the Manticore year provided in More Than Honor: 1.73, and the Manticoran date the orders were issued in The Short Victorious War: 282 AL. Honor's orders were issued approximately 488 T-years after Landing, or 1904 PD. Assuming construction started on Nike 2 or 3 T-years before that indicates Nike was laid down in approxiamtely 1901 or 1902 PD.

However, the information on the Reliant-class BCs discussing the new armor from House of Steel covers both Flight I and Flight II. And the Reliant entered service in 1896, while the Star Knight entered service in 1893.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MAD-4A   » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:18 am

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MaxxQ wrote: the armor is GROWN around it, including the internal framework. No seams, no welds, no joints of any kind...
That is a (relatively) new recently developed technique - compared to SL tech.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Castenea   » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:37 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:
MaxxQ wrote: the armor is GROWN around it, including the internal framework. No seams, no welds, no joints of any kind...
That is a (relatively) new recently developed technique - compared to SL tech.

Even with SL tech, changing a grazer mount would likely be akin to reguning a MBT. Not something to be done without a lot of forethought and requiring major depot level maintenance facilities. For a naval perspective, how many battleships built after 1906 had their main batteries changed?
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