SLN Reserve

We really cannot be sure what the security level at any time is, (be is LACs or destroyers or BCs routinely patrolling) but we know there should be a decent MILITARY security force, since this is an active base.

I would expect the absolute minimum to be some squadrons of anything from destroyers to cruisers, and several squadrons of LACs, as those apparently are standard for "local" defense and utility, and with these places being in systems that are almost certainly also major economic nodes(because that´s where you build your big bases more often than not), it is in fact quite possible that even non-capital ships garrison includes anything up to over a dozen LAC squadrons and a BIG bundle of non-capital ships.

Not to mention that of course also system defense missile systems is pretty much guaranteed, and while much less capable than what is normal now in the Haven quadrant, to anyone else they´re very dangerous, especially if used together with mobile forces.

And then, almost any primary fleet base will pretty much certainly always have a part of the fleet present. Especially when the SLN standard is NOT to be out and about or training, but staying in or close to port.

If you remove the GA and MA from the equation, the only real offensive option for a verge warlord is to fire a shload of ballistic missiles from outsystem and hope some don't get intercepted and blow holes in the reserve fleet. Then what? You just royally cheesed the SLN. They will hunt you down and roll over any defenses your planets have with a single digit percentage of their fleet. If you frame someone else, they will curbstomp them, then you in turn.

Yup. Pretty much the only way to do ANYTHING to those reserves is to damage and destroy them, and without multidrive missiles in large amounts, even that is NOT going to be easy. Heck, it probably wont be easy even with MDMs. The reserve ships are inert and silent, so just getting a reliable targeting solution against the majority is going to be an annoying task.

Tenshinai wrote:

We really cannot be sure what the security level at any time is, (be is LACs or destroyers or BCs routinely patrolling) but we know there should be a decent MILITARY security force, since this is an active base.

I would expect the absolute minimum to be some squadrons of anything from destroyers to cruisers, and several squadrons of LACs, as those apparently are standard for "local" defense and utility, and with these places being in systems that are almost certainly also major economic nodes(because that´s where you build your big bases more often than not), it is in fact quite possible that even non-capital ships garrison includes anything up to over a dozen LAC squadrons and a BIG bundle of non-capital ships.

Not to mention that of course also system defense missile systems is pretty much guaranteed, and while much less capable than what is normal now in the Haven quadrant, to anyone else they´re very dangerous, especially if used together with mobile forces.

And then, almost any primary fleet base will pretty much certainly always have a part of the fleet present. Especially when the SLN standard is NOT to be out and about or training, but staying in or close to port.

If you remove the GA and MA from the equation, the only real offensive option for a verge warlord is to fire a shload of ballistic missiles from outsystem and hope some don't get intercepted and blow holes in the reserve fleet. Then what? You just royally cheesed the SLN. They will hunt you down and roll over any defenses your planets have with a single digit percentage of their fleet. If you frame someone else, they will curbstomp them, then you in turn.

Yup. Pretty much the only way to do ANYTHING to those reserves is to damage and destroy them, and without multidrive missiles in large amounts, even that is NOT going to be easy. Heck, it probably wont be easy even with MDMs. The reserve ships are inert and silent, so just getting a reliable targeting solution against the majority is going to be an annoying task.

Man, I am really tech-unsavvy. I'd've thought you'd only have to vector in a ghost-rider drone to relay the coordinates.

Hey, I never said I passed the Crusher. LOL

Sigs wrote:I highly doubt that there are 20-30 million reservists.

Well, Duh!

There are NOT and probably never have been that many reservists. That doesn't mean there hasn't been a payroll for that many reservists in the budget.

Theemile wrote:OK, this whole thing has gotten ridiculous.

You do realize that you do not have to read this thread if you find it ridiculous? Right?

Tenshinai wrote:
No, it isn´t. That would be like saying that it´s worse to be shot dead by 20 bullets than with 1. You´re still dead. It´s still epic fail.

No that is like saying I just lost 1% of my reserve but still have 99% remaining vs I lost 20% of my reserve and have only 80 remaining. If we are talking about say a reserve that actually has reservists attached to it…well losing 1% is bad, losing 20% might be catastrophic. One is bad, the other might lose you the war.

If you have 500 SDs you wont be able to provide the same level of protection if you had to defend 100 sites compared to if you had to defend only 10 sites or 2 sites or 1 site. You have the same number of ships defending the more dispersed the less security you have to deploy in each location. Which means that losing 80 SDs from the reserve might be bad but you still have 7920 SDs remaining as opposed to losing 1600 SDs and having only 6400 SDs remaining.

Tenshinai wrote:Same with capital ships, losing 1 is still complete failure, because the wrong people only needs ONE if they want to, for example, hold a planet hostage or depopulate it with massed kinetic strikes.

Same goes for Nukes, take one and you destroy a major city, take 100 and you can destroy the entire planet. One means a few million deaths, the other means the extinction of the human race. See it’s a question of Magnitude. The whole point of the question of security is not to protect from one threat and one threat only but to protect from as many threats as possible.

Tenshinai wrote:Both are disasters. Only the scale of how far it can go differs.

That’s my point, from one you get a black eye and might see some of those ships used against you, from the other you lose a significant % of your forces and might add a significant number of capital ships to the enemy.

Tenshinai wrote:Unless it happened in some amazingly unrealistic or impossible to predict way, the local commander is still going to get shredded.

But so will the attacker… easier to go through 50 SDs in 10 individual pickets of 5 than it is to go through a concentrated force of 50 SDs.

Tenshinai wrote:Seriously, a bad month? You just allowed SOMEONE to become one of the TOP TEN owners of military firepower and you call that a bad month?

Because those 80 SDs although individually powerful and the nation that might take them will be propelled to the top 10 they still represent 3.5% of the active SDs of the SLN and less than 1% of the entire SLN wall.

Whereas someone capturing 1600 SDs automatically places them in the top 2 position after the SLN. Werther they have the means to operate them or not and it automatically removes 16% of the total SLN wall.

Tenshinai wrote:Really, think about it. There´s only a handful of nations known to have more than maybe a dozen of SDs at all.

And in 1905 non other than the SLN had more than 1000 SDs.

Tenshinai wrote:Wrong. If your other deployments are good enough, that´s fine either way.

IF. And if the other deployments are thrown out of whack like say a war starting requiring redeployment of the fleet? What you end up with is the security detachment assigned to protect the reserve location.

Tenshinai wrote:
How many entities in the Honorverse do you know that are realistically capable of a deep strike against heavy system defenses(they have to defend the naval bases as well, so they´re going to have it all close enough together to defend jointly) supported by 16-32 capital ships?

How do we know that the systems where the reserve is based are heavily defended? At least in a surprise attack scenario? The defences of the SLN core systems would amount to mines and SLN ships. No Missile pods and likely no forts. And how much resistance the system picket puts up depends on it’s readiness level.

Tenshinai wrote:WE KNOW there are some that ARE capable of it, even if the extreme range would strain the ability of even the RMN to do it.
SLN does not know that, they don´t know that what "everyone knows" about interstellar deep warfare and how it´s mostly impossible has already been invalidated by RMN, GSN, MAN and Haven.

And before the start of the first war with Haven no one knew or believed that deep strikes are possible.

Tenshinai wrote:Yet, if SLN tech was more up to date, even "now" it would be a very troublesome mission to strike against the reserves.

If the SLN was more technologically up to date in the war with the GA the reserve would be relevant or at least some portion of the reserve would be relevant.

Tenshinai wrote:And even as it is, it would still not be easy, even if it was more logistical issues than a matter of firepower.

And if someone decides to attack the big bad wolf they will stack the deck in their favour or lose quickly. In this case stacking the deck in the favour of anyone with ill intentions against the League is not too hard since the intelligence apparatus is not exactly top notch. It might not be easy or likely it is still possible.

Tenshinai wrote:The basic truth is that if the SLN defends each reserve location with 3 squadrons of SDs, that means they already have more mobile firepower supporting system defenses than maybe 20 nations in the known universe have in total.

A lot of good that does them against the unknown fleets that might have more firepower.

Tenshinai wrote:How many mothballed ships are guarded are irrelevant when there´s barely anyone that can even think about contesting the area at all. And again, that´s before accounting for fixed defenses and a few squadrons of LACs and probably a few squadrons of cruisers and lighter ships that are attached to the base and system.

And the Fixed defences are the missile pods the SLN does not have? And the LACs are the utterly useless version of 1905?

Tenshinai wrote:Again, you´re using false logic. If i defend a site to the point where as far as i know noone is realistically capable of attacking it, then exactly what the site contains that is being defended is completely irrelevant because to my knowledge, noone can successfully attack it anyway.

That is assuming you have the resources to defend the site adequately. Lets go back to the reserve being split into 100 locations, each system has enough reservists to activate those ships on short notice(3-6 months) can you guarantee the same level of protection as you would if it was split into 10 locations in 10 heavily populated core worlds that have enough reservists to activate a quarter of the ships in the system on short notice(3-6 months)?

If only 3 nations have more than 100 SDs but less than 400 SDs why bother defending the reserve at all?

Tenshinai wrote:
Yup. Pretty much the only way to do ANYTHING to those reserves is to damage and destroy them, and without multidrive missiles in large amounts, even that is NOT going to be easy. Heck, it probably wont be easy even with MDMs. The reserve ships are inert and silent, so just getting a reliable targeting solution against the majority is going to be an annoying task.

The SDs would have no armour in certain areas, throw enough missiles against the target area and you are bound to hit quite a few of them. Heck a few of the old style LACs with missiles can wreck havoc against the reserve.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:I highly doubt that there are 20-30 million reservists.

Well, Duh!

There are NOT and probably never have been that many reservists. That doesn't mean there hasn't been a payroll for that many reservists in the budget.

So you mean the SLN is carrying 30 million people...that is 30,000,000 people on it's payroll that don't actually exist? Why stop there? Why not say they have 2300 SDs and only keep 1500 around? No one will ever attack the League anyway right? Don't need the reserves, don't need that many active ships... How do you hide the fact that 15%-25% of your manpower does not exist? And even better why not start selling off the reserve? Selling a few SDs to Haven, the Andies or any number of other systems?

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:There are NOT and probably never have been that many reservists. That doesn't mean there hasn't been a payroll for that many reservists in the budget.

So you mean the SLN is carrying 30 million people...that is 30,000,000 people on it's payroll that don't actually exist?

I have no idea what the numbers are, but there is textev that there are indeed "phantom reservists." The active fleet is over-manned with real people because they need to make periodic "show the flag" tours to around 2,000 member systems-- they have to be visible and verifiable to keep the budget credits flowing. The Reserve isn't visible or expected to be visible, so "phantom reservists" are possible.

ETA: Not all reservists on the payroll are phantoms. There are probably enough cadre around to make a showing for junketing politicians, but a large percentage of the reserve for will exist only on paper.

And the Fixed defences are the missile pods the SLN does not have?

No, the oversized missile launchers that are known to be in use by other nations for system defense.
As was used by a certain Masadan clandestine base in the Grayson home system, if you recall.

And the LACs are the utterly useless version of 1905?

And this is relevant because? You keep moving the goalposts all the time.
The SLN didn´t know they´re useless, and have not had a chance to improve matters since they got any information in that direction.
And against >90% of forces in the known universe, they´re NOT useless.

Lets go back to the reserve being split into 100 locations

Why? We already know that´s pure rubbish, as it has been stated that there are 7 locations.

A lot of good that does them against the unknown fleets that might have more firepower.

Uh... Yeah because nations always prepare for the nonexistant unknown threats?

Seriously? If defenses can stop dead all but the top 5 navies known and make the rest pay for getting anywhere, why would they bother having more defenses than that?

That´s just wasting resources uselessly.

And if someone decides to attack the big bad wolf they will stack the deck in their favour or lose quickly. In this case stacking the deck in the favour of anyone with ill intentions against the League is not too hard since the intelligence apparatus is not exactly top notch. It might not be easy or likely it is still possible.

Yes? And? SLN didn´t have a clue about that until recently, and haven´t had a chance to make much changes since.

How do we know that the systems where the reserve is based are heavily defended?

*facepalm*
*headbang*


All reserves are stated to be in systems with MAJOR FLEET BASES. This has only been mentioned a few dozen times in the thread so far. Guess you managed to miss that all the times. Somehow.

Major fleetbases are always defended, AND they are usually established in systems that have a strong economy, which means massive populations, which in turn means even more probability of defenses, potentially even local system fleets adding to the whole, even if they are likely just "nearby" rather than part of the defenses around base and reserves.

Whereas someone capturing 1600 SDs automatically places them in the top 2 position after the SLN.

Mothballed. You will need either a ship capable of towing an SD for every one, which would make you having the 2nd largest navy around, making a theft like this ridiculously irrelevant anyway, or you will need about 300-1000 crew for each ship, probably taking at least a few weeks of work to get them in working order.

Uh yeah, because that´s just so logical and smart.

But so will the attacker…

No, i meant the commander will be torn to pieces by his own superiors for being such an utter fuckup that he fails in a very simple and basic protective duty.

easier to go through 50 SDs in 10 individual pickets of 5 than it is to go through a concentrated force of 50 SDs.

You think so?

Ok lets think about it then!
Defeating 5 SD, ok the attacker will likely need an absolute minimum of 8 SDs on their own to be reasonably certain of success.
Except any and all reserve sites WILL be placed so they have support from fixed defenses(anything else would be stupid and incompetent far beyond what is acceptable from ANY military), add a squadron of cruisers and another 4 SD to be certain of being able to deal with that without too much losses.

And then there´s probably a minimum of 3-4 squadrons of LACs insystem, add another 4 SD and a squadron of DDs and you can probably manage.

Oh, and then there´s the likely minefield placed around the reserve. Another squadron of DDs to sweep them with without taking too long.

So, now your attacking force consists of 16 SDs a squadron of cruisers and 2 squadrons of DDs, and your probability of success is likely somewhere in the 2/3 to 3/4 range.

Unless the base or system happens to have additional forces. Which is reasonably likely for at least half.
Or a battlefleet squadron or five of SDs popping in for a port call.

So, you need 160 SDs, 80 cruisers and 160 DDs, and in half the places you´re still going to get whacked unless you double up on your own forces. You´re probably going to lose a minimum of 20 SDs of your own, even if you assume none of the attacks runs into any additional forces.

Aaand then you´re going to do what exactly?
Just nuke the reserve ships? Right, so you just killed 800 SDs, less than what the SLN has operational at great costs both in material and personnel to yourself.

Keep it up and you´re pretty much guaranteed to get smacked down hard and lose very embarassingly.


To perform this operation without heavy losses to yourself, your going to need over 300 SDs, 200 cruisers and 300+ DDs.
At that point, seriously, if you have THOSE kind of forces to spare, you should use them for something that actually makes sense instead.
And you´re already a top 10 navy, why bother with those reserves at all?

You have to destroy battlefleets squadrons of ACTIVE ships first.


In case you missed it? NO, attacking several less defended positions is NOT automatically easier than attacking fewer places with more defenses.
It also fails one of the most important maxims of warfare, concentrate for offense, disperse in defense.

The defender always has the advantage of home ground, spreading your attacks out is like begging for things to go wrong.

That’s my point, from one you get a black eye and might see some of those ships used against you, from the other you lose a significant % of your forces and might add a significant number of capital ships to the enemy.

What does a black eye matter if you´re dead?

We've already got an example of a successful attack on a heavily defended system: Oyster Bay.

It depended on heavily stealthed scouts to find where everything was, and then carefully targeted missiles. That's basically all it took.

We've also got an example of a very creative use of missile wedges to take out targets that don't have any kind of wedge or shield of their own up. Like SDs in parking orbits or mines.

Observe, calculate, place assets, push the big red button and run away laughing.