Last use for SL SD captured

MAD-4A wrote:

Dauntless wrote:while CL level ordinance doesn't pose much threat to a modern SDs armour, these are being used against Solly SDs so they will do more damage then would against anyone else's SDs.

What makes you think that? An SD is an SD, they have just as much armor and sidewalls - just not bowwalls

remember all the trouble honor had with replacing one of Nike's fusion plants? due to new, stronger, tougher, better armour

that was nearly 2 decades ago in the honorverse. you really think that this new and improved armour is not being used on modern SDs?

again this armour forumla was NEW in 1904.

this improved armour is only available to the GA because even if SL had heard about and been given the formula they would rejected it because it was discovered/created by barbarians.

also these SDs are only a 7.5 Mt, so smaller ship equals less armour. they certainly do not carry as much armour as victory class SD (third to last manty class (7.7 Mt) before first gen SD(p)) let alone an invictus SD(P) (8.8 mt)

MAD-4A wrote:What makes you think that? An SD is an SD, they have just as much armor and sidewalls - just not bowwalls

Just because the SLN calls their DNs SDs doesn't mean they are not the equivalent of anyone else's modern DNs.

The design and specifications for a Scientist-class "SD" is over 200 years out of date. Despite some upgrades to armament and defenses, they still have their original 200 year-old armor specification.

MAD-4A wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Attempting to defend your system with a ship whose mere presence there may draw multiple vengeful SLN battle squadrons down upon your head seems a very counter productive exercise.

While fighting for their lives against the GA? The SL attitude will be - leave them till were finished then we can deal with them. If they survive the GA (assuming they do) then the system can deal with them - If they intended to "

Jonathan_S wrote:defend your system

" in the first place then they would want whatever they can get, for when they decide to come for them anyway. If they're planning to cow-down to the SL, well then - "here's your ship back - we were keeping it safe for you so someone else wouldn't take it." Like the Romanians did in 1905, either case they should grab as many as they think they can, while they're available.

Assuming the SLN is willing to accept the kowtow...
And yes the League picked a fight that (it seems) they can't win against the GA. But that might be even more reason for them to get cheap victories against people they can beat to boost public morale.

After all they've already decided not to use their surviving battle squadrons offensively against the GA, so carving off a dozen or so to smack down some podunk little system with the effrontery to operate a ship taken from the mighty Solarian League Navy doesn't detract from their operations against the GA. So why not do that while waiting for new construction that actually can (they believe) stand up to podnaughts?


They smack down the Verge system, get a waller back, and both slightly avenge the insult of their defeat by the GA and pointedly remind all their subject worlds that the League is still big enough to keep them from getting up to any nonsense.


Sure the League might prioritize it the other way and ignore the little insults until the crisis is dealt with. But that's a risky thing to assume since any time the League is in need of some positive internal publicity that policy might change; to your significant detriment.

MAD-4A wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:1: Any "enemy ship" except a freighter or another Scientist/Vega Class SD can simply depart and gather reinforcements.

or go somewhere else, where it isn't & from where BF "oh, please help us all powerful BF we are too week to wipe our own butts. " Like FF going to do that.

To make the point slightly more pointed, there are two reasons you have been elected the Grand Fundament on a platform of expanding and improving your systems navy.

1) There is an important segment of your population that has been following events in the Haven sector for the last 20 years.

2) The main local pirate who goes by the name "Peg-leg Morgan" has a fleet with two FGs which have demonstrated the ability to accelerate faster than the published specs of a Scientist class SD.

I know my proposed fleet of 4 wings of cimeteres, 8 DD and 2 CL is over kill for this pirate, but unlike a pair of SDs it is actually able to handle all of my fleets current duties, and those proposed for improving system security. They do not have all of my neighbors wondering if I am not only a bit paranoid, but also aggressive with plans against them.

This also means you are essentially placing your security in the hands of Haven. Who has spent the last 250 years gobbling up small minor systems and converting them into totalitarian prisons if that system foolishly allowed Haven the opportunity.

Dauntless wrote:new, stronger, tougher, better armour...

that was nearly 2 decades ago in the honorverse. you really think that this new and improved armour is not being used on modern SDs?

this improved armour is only available to the GA because even if SL had heard about and been given the formula they would rejected it because it was discovered/created by barbarians.

According to Honorverse wiki it's in standard use everywhere, which includes the SL...

Dauntless wrote:also these SDs are only a 7.5 Mt, so smaller ship equals less armour. they certainly do not carry as much armour as victory class SD (third to last manty class (7.7 Mt) before first gen SD(p)) let alone an invictus SD(P) (8.8 mt)

All of which is irrelevant. What part of:
YOU DON"T HAVE TO FIGHT YOURSELF YOU HAVE TO FIGHT YOUR ENEMY
is to complicated for you to comprehend?

These ships are the BEST/MOST POWERFUL ships the SL have to offer that means they are as good or better than ANYTHING they would have to fight, regardless of what type of armor they had - they have better than the enemy, regardless of what is behind them.

Any arguments that their {part-A-whatever} isn't as good as the {GAs-part-A+-whatever} is IRRELEVANT, it is still as good or better than other SL {part-A-whatevers}

Maybe you can comprehend it this way, when fleet of SDs goes into action against another fleet of SDs (lets say Manty/Haven = tech whatever) do the cruisers and Destroyers turn and run away?

No - why not - according to your argument the equipment on those ships (armor, missiles, PD etc...) aren't as good as what's on the enemy SDs, so by your logic they should all just go home and be scrapped because they aren't as good (smaller weapons, less armor, less PD) as their own SDs so why build anything else? Scrap all BCs and smaller ships and just build the biggest best SDs you can (and scrap all previous classes as soon as a new class comes out of the yards) because they aren't as good as the newest class you have.
You fight with what you have against what the enemy has, not against the best you have!


I don't know how to make it plainer than that.

Weird Harold wrote:The design and specifications for a Scientist-class "SD" is over 200 years out of date. Despite some upgrades to armament and defenses, they still have their original 200 year-old armor specification.

200 years - no it isn't.

Jonathan_S wrote: But that might be even more reason for them to get cheap victories against people they can beat to boost public morale...Sure the League might prioritize it the other way...

If they wanted to do that, they would with or without facing their own SDs.

According to Honorverse wiki it's in standard use everywhere, which includes the SL...

Armor is not new. The armor that Manticore uses is new. The laser head is roughly 50 years old at the present time. The Scientists are far older than that. Their armor composition is less advanced, and the layout and distribution of it is aimed at the old combat paradigm. It is the difference between a predreadnought and a WWII Iowa.

MAD-4A wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote: But that might be even more reason for them to get cheap victories against people they can beat to boost public morale...Sure the League might prioritize it the other way...

If they wanted to do that, they would with or without facing their own SDs.

But it wouldn't have much influence at home unless they were avenging the insult and recapturing their lost units.

The raid to recapture or burn the USS Philadelphia would have had a lot less emotional impact back home in the nasient United States if it had been a raid to capture or burn some random Barbary Corsair. It's because it was retaliation for the capture of the Philadelphia that it got memorialized.



Yes the SLN might decided to arbitrarily strike some random Verge system - and that system would be screwed no matter what they'd done to defend themselves (short of convincing Manticore or Haven to deploy a significant fleet or system defense infrastructure -- which seems unlikely)
But if some actions to defend themselves make SLN intervention against them more likely... I'd suggest that it would be better to seek out defenses that don't come with that liability.