SLN Reserve

The E wrote:
And it must be pointed out that those innovations were the first really significant shift in the combat paradigm in centuries (yes, I know, technically laser heads constitute one too, but I would argue that their impact on tactics and shipbuilding considerations was relatively minor. A pre-laser head SD can be adapted to use in the post-laser head environment by simply increasing and modernizing its point defence and EW capabilities; there is no equivalent change one can make to make a pre-pod/MDM ship a viable platform in a pod/MDM environment).

I would say that laser-heads were the driver of the modern combat ship, certainly where it comes to long range (missile) capability.

Theemile wrote:Not really. While an old ship can just load laser heads and change software, a new ship optimized for laser head combst, is going to be much superior. It will have a minimized, all grazer energy battery, freeing up space for other weapons. The optimized ship will have more point defense, and more CMs, in a ratio favoring CMs, to interdict more missiles, further from the ship, and no slug thrower countermeasures.

Bear in mind the reduced all-graser armament came about primarily due to Grayson seeing studies showing that with the accuracy and damage output capability of modern weapon systems, the multiple energy weapon batteries were really inefficient and pretty much a waste of space.

WLBjork wrote:
Bear in mind the reduced all-graser armament came about primarily due to Grayson seeing studies showing that with the accuracy and damage output capability of modern weapon systems, the multiple energy weapon batteries were really inefficient and pretty much a waste of space.

What the Graysons looked at was RMN battle data and saw that laserheads were more likely to remove sidewalls and damage ECM systems prior to the energy battle. Coupled with superior sensors, they determined it was no longer necessary to bracket the probable hit area with as many shots to produce hits as it was earlier in combat, or against an undamaged foe.

Knowing each energy shot had a high(er) probability of hitting, having each shot do the most damage possible is better than many less damaging shots - and tons wasted on multiple ineffective weapons.

Once again, it was the laserhead which allowed the missile battle to remove the sidewalls and damaged ECM emitters, and allowed a better view of the target for the laser battle.

Louis R wrote:The officers who established that doctrine would certainly be appalled by the way that their successors were caught flat footed by the emergence of not one but two navies not just able but willing to go toe-to-toe with the SLN.

Four openly (the Graysons and Andies in addition to Haven and Manticore), five actually (the MAN being #5), and presumably seven fairly soon (add Erewhon/Maya and Beowulf to the list).

In defensive actions, where they have static systems in support, yes, but I don't think that any of those are big enough to take the fight to the SLN and win. In fact, even the RMN is probably only just big enough. And, to be honest, both the GSN and the IAN would have been lost in the glare of the big 2.

drothgery wrote:

Louis R wrote:The officers who established that doctrine would certainly be appalled by the way that their successors were caught flat footed by the emergence of not one but two navies not just able but willing to go toe-to-toe with the SLN.

Four openly (the Graysons and Andies in addition to Haven and Manticore), five actually (the MAN being #5), and presumably seven fairly soon (add Erewhon/Maya and Beowulf to the list).

[quote="Louis R"]In defensive actions, where they have static systems in support, yes, but I don't think that any of those are big enough to take the fight to the SLN and win. In fact, even the RMN is probably only just big enough. And, to be honest, both the GSN and the IAN would have been lost in the glare of the big 2.

The GSN is powerful enough that it can simply ignore the SLN - the SLN cannot throw a large enough force against Yeltsin to do anything but drive down scrape metal prices in the Yeltsin area.

The IAN has a problem of having too many planets to protect (~55) to be invulnerable to the SLN, but the SLN would need Filareta sized forces to effectively crack single systems while taking still heavy losses (at least Crandall Sized) for every planet it took, all the while being unable to hold territory because it would be susceptible to heavy IAN counterattack.

Exactly.

In fact, I'm not even sure the SLN could take any given Andy system - we haven't seen all their tricks, by a long shot. And they'd come up with some good ones even before getting access to first-line RMN tech. I'm fairly sure that they cooked up some useful sysdef kit; they will have been improving and deploying it on the side.

Which fact was, I imagine, a major influence in deciding to give them that access. Nobody in the White Haven Admiralty would be stupid enough to think the possibility of future conflict had gone away, or was negligible in the current need for allies. But they also wouldn't be dumb enough to think the Andies weren't perfectly capable of getting there on their own.

Theemile wrote:

Louis R wrote:In defensive actions, where they have static systems in support, yes, but I don't think that any of those are big enough to take the fight to the SLN and win. In fact, even the RMN is probably only just big enough. And, to be honest, both the GSN and the IAN would have been lost in the glare of the big 2.

The GSN is powerful enough that it can simply ignore the SLN - the SLN cannot throw a large enough force against Yeltsin to do anything but drive down scrape metal prices in the Yeltsin area.

The IAN has a problem of having too many planets to protect (~55) to be invulnerable to the SLN, but the SLN would need Filareta sized forces to effectively crack single systems while taking still heavy losses (at least Crandall Sized) for every planet it took, all the while being unable to hold territory because it would be susceptible to heavy IAN counterattack.

Louis R wrote:Exactly.

In fact, I'm not even sure the SLN could take any given Andy system - we haven't seen all their tricks, by a long shot. And they'd come up with some good ones even before getting access to first-line RMN tech. I'm fairly sure that they cooked up some useful sysdef kit; they will have been improving and deploying it on the side.

Which fact was, I imagine, a major influence in deciding to give them that access. Nobody in the White Haven Admiralty would be stupid enough to think the possibility of future conflict had gone away, or was negligible in the current need for allies. But they also wouldn't be dumb enough to think the Andies weren't perfectly capable of getting there on their own.

In story it has been mentioned multiple time no weapon system technology has remained secret for very long after it has been used in battle. Harkness had made statement on how PRN could build their own MDMs with off the shelf tech.

The biggest worry for the GA is the SL getting its act together and buying time for their absolutely huge industrial/tech/research base to catch up.

Louis R wrote:Exactly.

In fact, I'm not even sure the SLN could take any given Andy system - we haven't seen all their tricks, by a long shot. And they'd come up with some good ones even before getting access to first-line RMN tech. I'm fairly sure that they cooked up some useful sysdef kit; they will have been improving and deploying it on the side.

Which fact was, I imagine, a major influence in deciding to give them that access. Nobody in the White Haven Admiralty would be stupid enough to think the possibility of future conflict had gone away, or was negligible in the current need for allies. But they also wouldn't be dumb enough to think the Andies weren't perfectly capable of getting there on their own.

My thoughts exactly. The IAN has been building POD-Naughts and POD-BCs for some time along with high performance missiles, both single and multi-stage.

They've already proven they can be a formidable adversary with a very competent (with a few exceptions) Navy and a warrior ethos. Smart and tough and a touch of Russian-like institutional paranoia.

I would expect that the IAN has been building system defenses capable of standing off or hamstringing a major fleet attack even by the RMN. I expect they would probably turn a major SLN attack into a turkey shoot ala Crandall though they wouldn't be as "nice" about it as the RMN was.

pnakasone wrote:In story it has been mentioned multiple time no weapon system technology has remained secret for very long after it has been used in battle. Harkness had made statement on how PRN could build their own MDMs with off the shelf tech.

The biggest worry for the GA is the SL getting its act together and buying time for their absolutely huge industrial/tech/research base to catch up.

Historically military weapon secrets last only until they are first used or become too unwieldy to hide.

I agree that one of the GA's big worries should be that the SL produce someone competent who survives long enough to reach a position of power in the SL. Not likely, but neither is getting hit by lightning, twice, in the same storm. But it does happen.

Like Manticore, the Solarian League only needs to survive long enough for its inherent advantages to carry the day. Unlike Manticore, the League doesn't have and won't get the time they need. Half the point of the last book was to drive home just how quickly the League was coming apart at the edges.

robert132 wrote:

pnakasone wrote:In story it has been mentioned multiple time no weapon system technology has remained secret for very long after it has been used in battle. Harkness had made statement on how PRN could build their own MDMs with off the shelf tech.

The biggest worry for the GA is the SL getting its act together and buying time for their absolutely huge industrial/tech/research base to catch up.

Historically military weapon secrets last only until they are first used or become too unwieldy to hide.

I agree that one of the GA's big worries should be that the SL produce someone competent who survives long enough to reach a position of power in the SL. Not likely, but neither is getting hit by lightning, twice, in the same storm. But it does happen.