Last use for SL SD captured

MAD-4A wrote:An enemy ship entering a system won't know what they are facing - all they can see is the hull and EM signature - "CRAP!... Its a Scientist class SD, must be one of those that idiot Filareta gave to the Manties, probably has their #&@* long range super-missiles on it."

1: Any "enemy ship" except a freighter or another Scientist/Vega Class SD can simply depart and gather reinforcements.

2: Any SD can only be in one place at a time.

Fout FF BC loaded with Spatha and Cataphract-A missiles drop into a system known to have one third-hand Scientist SD.

"Ahab take Ishmael with you and distract the SD. Run him out of missiles if you can, but stay out of beam range. Play lame-duck and get him to chase you out to the asteroid belt then jump out and hide for a couple of hours.

"Capt Teach and I will coast in under stealth and take out their orbitals, demand a surrender and make a few demonstration KEW strikes until they do."

3: Frontier Fleet now has another planet back in the fold and a surrendered Scientist/Vega class SD to use for parts and such to keep their BC Fleet in service.

ETA: also what Jonathan_S said.

With a lease comes a Manty assistance crew, a few DD CL CA or BC's. Any place needing a SD would get a couple three four. Add in a few dozen mk16 pods and any BC popping into the system will be trashed before it can get back out of the system again. Small systems would get a CA and a couple DD. DD to hyper for help should a sufficient force show up. Watching from a couple places outside the limit. Every protected system gets at least a light squadron of 4 ships. Be it a couple cruisers and tin cans up to a SD or two and a couple BC, Homers or the like. Manty officers and senior non comms with local recruits, in training. Two or three such squadrons in more important areas. With a Nike as main ship with All Manty Crew.

Manty crews coming from the 1,000's to 10,000's of Freights and transports currently out of work. Those from working in the league with past military experience etc... They maybe 80-100 years old but then so are the ships, even though they are updated. Plus some of the better Haven crews.

LERM and ERM missiles and some Mk16 14 missile pods. A dozen or two each that is just over 1300 long range missiles and 10's of 1,000's of Extended range missiles. With SD(P) or BC(P) on standby if they are really needed, just a junction away.

A local System DD shows up requesting assistance, At least one maybe Two or three BC are causing problems in their system, a SDx2 BCx2 squad accompanies it back and the surprise attack on the system fails dramatically. Frontier Fleet 0 Manty's 1.

Of course if they don't surrender Capt. Teach and you make a few KEW strikes and then an SD vaporizes you, then what?

Lord Skimper wrote:Of course if they don't surrender Capt. Teach and you make a few KEW strikes and then an SD vaporizes you, then what?

How is a Scientist/Vega class going to catch a BC to Vaporize it? Especially when the BC has an AU or so lead to start with? There's not going to be any surrender demands or KEW strikes unless the White Elephant goes chasing after Ahab and Ishmael. :p

Lord Skimper wrote:With a lease comes a Manty assistance crew, a few DD CL CA or BC's. Any place needing a SD would get a couple three four.

That's an unwarranted assumption. Any place getting a "few DD, CL, CA, or BC from Manticore won't need SDs; anyone getting a SLN SD from Manticore is going to be choosing a lesser option that doesn't come with Manticoran oversight and control of the technology -- as postulated as a requirement for getting for a Mycroft/Apollo system.

Anyone buying/leasing/getting an obsolete SD is doing so because they want either the false prestige of having an "SD" for a flagship or for "power projection"/intimidation of their neighbors. It certainly wouldn't be from a desire to have a realistic/effective defense system based around Mycroft or Moriarty and modern LACs or a system with enough versatility to be used for Immigration and Customs work when not being attacked.

Or you don't trust Manticore to deploy Skynet into your system and essentially surrender your sovereignty. Or Manticore doesn't trust you to give you anything modern.

In either case, they might be willing to give you some antiquated ships they have no practical use for.

kzt wrote:Or you don't trust Manticore to deploy Skynet into your system and essentially surrender your sovereignty. Or Manticore doesn't trust you to give you anything modern.

In either case, they might be willing to give you some antiquated ships they have no practical use for.

But if you don't trust Manticore's Skynet you're not going to trust the RMN to plat their "few DD, CL, CA, or BC" in your system.

Either you trust Manticore enough to secure you system - in which case you happily accept whatever they're willing to offer you. Or you don't trust them, and you might pick up a obsolete SD (or more likely cruiser or BC) and try to make a go of it -- but in neither case would Lord Skimper's fantasy be reasonable.

MAD-4A wrote:If a 100 or so systems around the SL suddenly had a SD squadron with Havenite upgrades (no not really but the SL doesn't have to know that) then the SL planners would have to add defense from that venue to their plans - no 'strip everything from the rear and shove them down the Manties throats bid, like Haven tried'. If Haven could upgrade a few 2-3 squadrons perhaps (likely of the worst damaged ones) to operate the newer tech (not the current best) and give those to their best shots at actual allies, then it would give 'proof' that 'yea they are upgrading them after all' and the SL would assume the rest were upgraded as-well.

The problem is that those verge systems are not fools and will have their own internal and external politics.

For the fool part, there has been such a change in war fighting tech on the top end that anyone who has been paying attention knows that Scientist/Vega class SDs are a resource sink with very little upside.

As for the internal and external politics, the Verge polity is likely to have a cabinet meeting that goes like this:

Ministers of Exchequer, Pacification and the Speaker to Barbarians bring a sheaf of papers announcing we have a counter proposal. Instead of 2 Scientist SDs, buy 4 wings of Cimetteere class LACs from Haven, and order 8 DDs and 2 CLs from Erewhon or Haven.

Minister of Exchequer points out that this would be cheaper to man and maintain that the 2 SDs.

Minister of Pacification points to intelligence reports suggesting that the LACs are more effective than the pair of SDs, and that the whole package would be more flexible and less disruptive to your current military, allowing it to be used sooner.

The Speaker to Barbarians points out that acquiring the SDs would worry your neighbors, possibly causing them to either unite against you, or worst case, go ask the SL to remove you.

All three also state that if you insist on going through with acquiring the SDs they will support a vote of no confidence at the next meeting of the Allthing.

Castenea wrote:The problem is that those verge systems are not fools and will have their own internal and external politics.

As somebody upthread pointed out, this is really really important. Superdreadnoughts are always power projection platforms. They have defensive uses, yes, but their primary purpose is to be offensive platforms. Acquiring one sends a strong signal that you are definitely thinking about expanding your sphere of influence.

And that's before the simple consideration that, in the eternal race between bullets and armor, the bullets are currently winning: No old SD has defences that can deal with MDM missile swarms, and seeding a system with system defence pods and guidance relays is a simple and very cost-effective method of securing it that is much more likely to be within the means of the average verge system.

It's the difference between buying modern ATGMs for your armed forces and modernizing your tank regiments. One is an essentially defensive action, the other will have your neighboring states worried about your plans and intentions.

Castenea wrote:

MAD-4A wrote:If a 100 or so systems around the SL suddenly had a SD squadron with Havenite upgrades (no not really but the SL doesn't have to know that) then the SL planners would have to add defense from that venue to their plans - no 'strip everything from the rear and shove them down the Manties throats bid, like Haven tried'. If Haven could upgrade a few 2-3 squadrons perhaps (likely of the worst damaged ones) to operate the newer tech (not the current best) and give those to their best shots at actual allies, then it would give 'proof' that 'yea they are upgrading them after all' and the SL would assume the rest were upgraded as-well.

The problem is that those verge systems are not fools and will have their own internal and external politics.

For the fool part, there has been such a change in war fighting tech on the top end that anyone who has been paying attention knows that Scientist/Vega class SDs are a resource sink with very little upside.

As for the internal and external politics, the Verge polity is likely to have a cabinet meeting that goes like this:

Ministers of Exchequer, Pacification and the Speaker to Barbarians bring a sheaf of papers announcing we have a counter proposal. Instead of 2 Scientist SDs, buy 4 wings of Cimetteere class LACs from Haven, and order 8 DDs and 2 CLs from Erewhon or Haven.

Minister of Exchequer points out that this would be cheaper to man and maintain that the 2 SDs.

Minister of Pacification points to intelligence reports suggesting that the LACs are more effective than the pair of SDs, and that the whole package would be more flexible and less disruptive to your current military, allowing it to be used sooner.

The Speaker to Barbarians points out that acquiring the SDs would worry your neighbors, possibly causing them to either unite against you, or worst case, go ask the SL to remove you.

All three also state that if you insist on going through with acquiring the SDs they will support a vote of no confidence at the next meeting of the Allthing.

Vice-Mister to the exchequer points out that Haven wants 4.3 billion Manticoran dollars up front and 800 million per year for support, while the slightly used scientists are available for the cost of transport.