Last use for SL SD captured

Jonathan_S wrote:Each SD, even the small SLN SD, is like 59 times the size of an Nimitz-class carrier. Arguably the US is operating 17% of an SD

no their not, each ship takes the exact same crew. having a million tons of steel sitting around costs nothing. Its the crew that has been argued is the choke point. Most of a starships systems would be (out of necessity) automated, even in a non-'reduced labor' ship like the SLN use. You don't have a guy going in with a hand crank to 'crank' the nodes from wedge to sail, he pushes a button. An Iowa requires barley 2000 men, and many of those operate the main turrets and magazines. A Nimitz has only a very small ships crew, the majority of the 6,000 men are air crew - which is very labor intensive, so if anything 10CVNs would be more like 12-14SDs for labor purposes.

And, didn't you read? Cataphracts can't fit in Magazines, they have to be towed in pods, they also don't have the real-time course correction that the Apollo has. But By now they do know about the Mk16, at-least roughly, that the GA have missiles with twice their max range that can fire from DD/CA tubes so there would e no reason for them to think that these SDs weren't reloaded with similar missiles - unless they actually confront one. Aside from current production issues there is no real reason they couldn't be with only minor modification, they were designed to be easily applied to the existing Manti fleet, and the Haven counter-parts certainly were, they used them on older ship all the time, something for the SLN planners to consider when looking at the deployment of these massive ships with large numbers of tubes.

Weird Harold wrote:... and you're still ignoring the time element: In the time it would take to bring an obsolete, second-hand SLN SD to any sort of effective readiness -- including fixing all of the little things the SLN crew let slide -- other, cheaper, options could be built from scratch. Building from scratch provides the opportunity for crews to learn their systems from the ground up.

And your ignoring the fact that neither the Manties nor Grayson can build anything else, yet Haven has 100s of unused ship yards, repair ships and repair crews tooled and trained on roughly the same tech these ships use, because Bolt Hole is the system currently producing the 'New' Haven ships. These ship can easily be brought back in service using those old repair ships and crews, and I said to sell (or give) them to 2nd rate systems around the SL, bring in more 'Neutral' allies surrounding the SL. They don't have to be good, just look fierce, like maybe the SL should keep an eye out for them to pounce - the ships don't have to be effective or even have an effective crew, just look the part, and with minor fix-ups, no real upgrades, by Haven, there would be no way for the SL planners to know that they haven't been upgraded with those "DAMN-LONG-RANGE-GA-Missiles". This would force them to keep looking over their shoulder against a non-existent threat. - read about 'fleet-in-being'.

As I mentioned before - but failed to spell out - the US and Russian ICBM force never did anything, nobodies even 100% sure they would actually work right (have you ever seen one used?), yet the treat was enough to keep anyone from testing them.

If a 100 or so systems around the SL suddenly had a SD squadron with Havenite upgrades (no not really but the SL doesn't have to know that) then the SL planners would have to add defense from that venue to their plans - no 'strip everything from the rear and shove them down the Manties throats bid, like Haven tried'. If Haven could upgrade a few 2-3 squadrons perhaps (likely of the worst damaged ones) to operate the newer tech (not the current best) and give those to their best shots at actual allies, then it would give 'proof' that 'yea they are upgrading them after all' and the SL would assume the rest were upgraded as-well.

As to other historical text:

in 1914 the US Navy had already launched the Nevada class and were building the Pennsylvania class Supper Dreadnoughts. Italy had 3 Conte di Cavour and 2 Andrea Doria class Dreadnought in the water, even Austria had 4 brand new Tegetthoff class dreadnoughts in the water - 3 commissioned. Greece went to the US for new Battleships, did they as for brand new Pennsylvania class Supper Dreadnoughts? no they were perfectly happy with old Mississippi-class pre-dreadnoughts, and not even the best, the previous Connecticut class were bigger and better. huh???? but they were obsolete why would they do that ??? I don't understand ??? It's because that was all they felt they needed - they wanted something to counter the Brandenburgs Turkey was using - You don't need the best - just better than your enemy.

I can't believe this thread has generated so many pages already.

It's the gift that keeps giving. And giving.

MAD-4A wrote:And, didn't you read? Cataphracts can't fit in Magazines, they have to be towed in pods, ...

Speaking of reading: Does Cataphract-A, Cataphract-B and Cataphract-C ring any bells?

ETA Textev:

Torch of Freedom
Chapter Fifty-Eight wrote:The weapon carried only half as many lasing rods as a standard laser head. Worse, the Cataphract was twenty percent longer than a standard missile of any given weight, which meant it would no longer fit into launch tubes which had been designed to handle the single-drive missile upon which it was based. The Cataphract-C, built around the SLN's Trebuchet capital missile, could be fired only out of one of the missile pods the MAN hadn't seen fit to offer Citizen Commodore Luff. The Cataphract-B, based on the Javelin missile intended for the League's battlecruisers and heavy cruisers, could be fired from a standard superdreadnought missile tube, but not by an Indefatigable or a Warlord-C. But Luff's battlecruisers could fire the Cataphract-A, based on the Spatha, the SLN's new-model destroyer and light cruiser shipkiller. His Mars-Cs could have, as well, but only the battlecruisers had been supplied with the new weapon, and even they carried only enough of them for a dozen full broadsides.

MAD-4A wrote:As to other historical text:

in 1914 the US Navy had already launched the Nevada class and were building the Pennsylvania class Supper Dreadnoughts. Italy had 3 Conte di Cavour and 2 Andrea Doria class Dreadnought in the water, even Austria had 4 brand new Tegetthoff class dreadnoughts in the water - 3 commissioned. Greece went to the US for new Battleships, did they as for brand new Pennsylvania class Supper Dreadnoughts? no they were perfectly happy with old Mississippi-class pre-dreadnoughts, and not even the best, the previous Connecticut class were bigger and better. huh???? but they were obsolete why would they do that ??? I don't understand ??? It's because that was all they felt they needed - they wanted something to counter the Brandenburgs Turkey was using - You don't need the best - just better than your enemy.

Greece actually didn't go shopping for the Mississippis, they wanted a new build Dreadnaught. However, the US offered Greece the sale of the 2 slightly used Mississippi pre-Deadnaughts, now, for less than the price of one new build. The ships's issues in American service (low speed, low freeboard, poor seakeeping attributes, stability, and range) were not an issue as the primary capital ships in the Mediterranean nation's navy, while giving them 2 modernish, heavily armored ships with powerful main weapons.

So, they were able to get 2 superior ships's to counter Turkey's, immediately, and at a bargain. If they had pushed to purchase a new dreadnaught, it would not have been completed for ~3 years, and the US would have taken it into their service for the war, so Greece wouldn't have seen it until ~1920.

MAD-4A wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:... and you're still ignoring the time element: In the time it would take to bring an obsolete, second-hand SLN SD to any sort of effective readiness -- including fixing all of the little things the SLN crew let slide -- other, cheaper, options could be built from scratch. Building from scratch provides the opportunity for crews to learn their systems from the ground up.

And your ignoring the fact that neither the Manties nor Grayson can build anything else, yet Haven has 100s of unused ship yards, repair ships and repair crews tooled and trained on roughly the same tech these ships use, because Bolt Hole is the system currently producing the 'New' Haven ships. These ship can easily be brought back in service using those old repair ships and crews, and I said to sell (or give) them to 2nd rate systems around the SL, bring in more 'Neutral' allies surrounding the SL. They don't have to be good, just look fierce, like maybe the SL should keep an eye out for them to pounce - the ships don't have to be effective or even have an effective crew, just look the part, and with minor fix-ups, no real upgrades, by Haven, there would be no way for the SL planners to know that they haven't been upgraded with those "DAMN-LONG-RANGE-GA-Missiles". This would force them to keep looking over their shoulder against a non-existent threat. - read about 'fleet-in-being'.

As I mentioned before - but failed to spell out - the US and Russian ICBM force never did anything, nobodies even 100% sure they would actually work right (have you ever seen one used?), yet the treat was enough to keep anyone from testing them.

If a 100 or so systems around the SL suddenly had a SD squadron with Havenite upgrades (no not really but the SL doesn't have to know that) then the SL planners would have to add defense from that venue to their plans - no 'strip everything from the rear and shove them down the Manties throats bid, like Haven tried'. If Haven could upgrade a few 2-3 squadrons perhaps (likely of the worst damaged ones) to operate the newer tech (not the current best) and give those to their best shots at actual allies, then it would give 'proof' that 'yea they are upgrading them after all' and the SL would assume the rest were upgraded as-well.

Why do you get the picture that Haven has 100's of unused yards? Haven has been at war (either hot or cold) with Manticore for ~20 years. The reason Beatrice was kicked off in 1921 was that Haven had ~600 more SDs completing in the next year or 2, along with hundreds of other ships. No shipyards were lying around unused, they were being worked - and expanded - for the war effort. Now, the war with the Solarian League is coming. Any unused slips will be retrofitting completed RHN hulls to carry the Apollo KHII modules, while other churn out new builds.

On top of that, Haven required 36 months at in WoH to complete a SD(p) at Bolthole. A Havenite SD(p) is easily the equal of a squadron, if not a squadron and a half of Scientists. If you require more than 3 months of yard time to ready a Scientist, the time would be more effectively spent building a new SD(P). And since any new SD(p)s will have Apollo, you can probably round that down to 2 months.

Yes, you can probably find a handful of Havenite slips to do any repairs or modifications, but not hundreds, and they would probably be better used repairing other ships.

Weird Harold wrote:

MAD-4A wrote:And, didn't you read? Cataphracts can't fit in Magazines, they have to be towed in pods, ...

Speaking of reading: Does Cataphract-A, Cataphract-B and Cataphract-C ring any bells?

ETA Textev:

Torch of Freedom
Chapter Fifty-Eight wrote:The weapon carried only half as many lasing rods as a standard laser head. Worse, the Cataphract was twenty percent longer than a standard missile of any given weight, which meant it would no longer fit into launch tubes which had been designed to handle the single-drive missile upon which it was based. The Cataphract-C, built around the SLN's Trebuchet capital missile, could be fired only out of one of the missile pods the MAN hadn't seen fit to offer Citizen Commodore Luff. The Cataphract-B, based on the Javelin missile intended for the League's battlecruisers and heavy cruisers, could be fired from a standard superdreadnought missile tube, but not by an Indefatigable or a Warlord-C. But Luff's battlecruisers could fire the Cataphract-A, based on the Spatha, the SLN's new-model destroyer and light cruiser shipkiller. His Mars-Cs could have, as well, but only the battlecruisers had been supplied with the new weapon, and even they carried only enough of them for a dozen full broadsides.

Ah you saw this well before I did. I was about to post exactly that (plus the quote from Ch 55 about having Cataphracts in his magazines).

Probably a good thing you did it first, I was poised to be a bit snippy about the "didn't you read" jibe.

Theemile wrote:Greece actually didn't go shopping for the Mississippis, they wanted a new build Dreadnaught. However, the US offered Greece the sale of the 2 slightly used Mississippi pre-Deadnaughts, now, for less than the price of one new build. The ships's issues in American service (low speed, low freeboard, poor seakeeping attributes, stability, and range) were not an issue as the primary capital ships in the Mediterranean nation's navy, while giving them 2 modernish, heavily armored ships with powerful main weapons.

So, they were able to get 2 superior ships's to counter Turkey's, immediately, and at a bargain. If they had pushed to purchase a new dreadnaught, it would not have been completed for ~3 years, and the US would have taken it into their service for the war, so Greece wouldn't have seen it until ~1920.

So you make my point for me, Greece didn't care that they weren't 'top of the line - better than the best' they just wanted 'good enough for the job' and both of these 'obsolete, useless' ships went on to serve Greece well for nearly 2 decades - including 2 shooting conflicts! - before being retired. As I have tried to point out many times before "You don't have to be better than YOU, You only have to be better than your ENEMY."

And it specified that the Cataphracts delivered to the Fleet were in PODs not the mag launched versions, and they were all flushed in the opening salvo.