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THE C R U S H E R

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: THE C R U S H E R
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:17 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:But there are a ton of jobs that aren't warship command that also aren't desk jobs; aboard ship Engineering, Medical, Weapons, Communications, Flight Operations, pilot, etc. don't require ATC graduates - even for department heads.


I can't speak for the way RFC organized the requirements of the RMN, but I can speak regarding USAF requirements for "Continuing Profession Education."

In order to be promoted to any rank, there is a list of "prerequisites to promotion." The educational prerequisites can be fulfilled either by correspondence course or in-residence course. Any of the prerequisites can be waived or deferred for one promotion level but MUST be completed before any further promotion.

Textev is that a Destroyer command is possible without completing ATC, but nothing bigger And as demonstrated in SoV with Ginger's new command, the Crusher seems to be a requirement for command of a warship, not for command of support ships.

The Crusher (in-residence at Saganami Island) might have a Correspondence Course equivalent for promotion purposes to get Staff Officer types past Capt J.G. to "Capt of the List" and above. Pavel Young might well have passed the Correspondence course and then had his records "adjusted" through his father's influence or patronage to show "in-residence" instead of "correspondence."

Or he may have skated through the same way SLN officers pass inspections: somebody gave him a cheat sheet so he had all of the right responses memorized before the tests.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: THE C R U S H E R
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:09 pm

Howard T. Map-addict
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DW established in the first books that,
before The War,
there were effectively two groups of RMN officers:
the "Political" and the "True Fighters."
In each group, the seniors protected their own juniors.
Thus, Young was promoted by his fellow aristos,
and Honor by all those who valued fighting spirit and
talent.
We were shown some of that.

HTM

cthia wrote:{snip - htm}
Courvoisier was Honor's classroom instructor. But was it given who actually administered the actual "exam?" If there are several, as it is implied of the Perisher, then the North Hollow files could have been used to influence said instructor to fail Honor. And policy would have it that she'd have been done, as far as a more prestigious hyper command is concerned. And that may have indeed spelled death for someone like Honor. Or perhaps even to the Star Kingdom. 'ouch'
{snip}
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Re: THE C R U S H E R
Post by kzt   » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:50 pm

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cthia wrote:I was thinking that someone who really had a craving for hyper command wouldn't find anything else personally rewarding to them. And that the qualifications of someone who does have hyper command under his or her belt would be better qualified at BuShips, BuWeap or even BuPers. BuPers because you've commanded the bigger ships and are more aware of the internecine politics aboard a larger ship. Some fish just shouldn't be placed with others. I admit those thoughts to be those of someone wet behind the ears.

Your personal fulfillment ranks fairly low on the priorities of the military when determining what they want you to do. It's part of the the whole service thing.
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Re: THE C R U S H E R
Post by Fox2!   » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:31 am

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kzt wrote:[
Your personal fulfillment ranks fairly low on the priorities of the military when determining what they want you to do. It's part of the the whole service thing.


That's why they call it a "dream sheet." You dream, your career manager sends you where he wants to. If they match, buy a bunch of lottery tickets.
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Re: THE C R U S H E R
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:42 am

Weird Harold
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Fox2! wrote:That's why they call it a "dream sheet." You dream, your career manager sends you where he wants to. If they match, buy a bunch of lottery tickets.


When I graduated from Tech School in 1969, five of the six in my class requested various bases in Europe and the US. The Fifth put Vietnam as his Number One choice and Thailand as Number two and a US Base rumored to have frequent TDY deployments to Vietnam.

When we got our orders, Five of us went to Da Nang, Vietnam and one went to Misawa, Japan. Three guesses who went to Japan and the first two don't count. :p
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: THE C R U S H E R
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:57 am

cthia
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kzt wrote:
cthia wrote:I was thinking that someone who really had a craving for hyper command wouldn't find anything else personally rewarding to them. And that the qualifications of someone who does have hyper command under his or her belt would be better qualified at BuShips, BuWeap or even BuPers. BuPers because you've commanded the bigger ships and are more aware of the internecine politics aboard a larger ship. Some fish just shouldn't be placed with others. I admit those thoughts to be those of someone wet behind the ears.

Your personal fulfillment ranks fairly low on the priorities of the military when determining what they want you to do. It's part of the the whole service thing.


No doubt. Nonetheless, that is only true to a point isn't it? You do have control over your choice of whether to actually seek hyper command or not to seek hyper command and or your choice of specialization, no? You just don't have any control over how the powers that be choose to utilize your skills or where you get sent after completion of said specialization, no?

I get the feeling that being on track for the Crusher is much like being a professor on tenure track. Failing to achieve tenure gets you a one-way ticket off the campus.

There is a question trying to coalesce in my brain, but confusion hinders it from forming. I'll simply forge ahead and wade into hyper without a command, LOL ...

The Crusher prepares an officer for hyper command of the larger ships above a DD. No light (CL) or heavy cruisers (DL).

However, a DD is hyper capable. So it isn't the issue of being denied a hyper command or command of a DD wouldn't be possible. So what exactly does the Crusher prepare one for? The first thing that comes to mind before the neurons fire is that you're denied a ship capable of slotting in a 'wall of battle.' A capital ship. But that isn't it either, because CLs and DLs aren't capital ships either. Is it the ordnance that the Crusher better prepares one to wield? I'm not sure that adequately fingers the distinction either because I have a distinct feeling that the RMN would place Apollo missiles aboard a LAC if possible.

So is it distinctly the ability to fight a ship in a wall of battle that distinguishes the Crushers from the rest of the pack? Because a captain with lots of DD experience could fight her ship as well as any other larger ships. You only have to look to Harrington's efforts in the War Games with Hawkwing, a lowly DD for that. Although she had already completed the Crusher, I will go out on a limb and say she could have accomplished the same thing on raw talent alone. 'Course I'm rather partial to Lady Harrington and could be embellishing her tactical acumen before the Crusher.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: THE C R U S H E R
Post by Vince   » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:54 pm

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cthia wrote:No doubt. Nonetheless, that is only true to a point isn't it? You do have control over your choice of whether to actually seek hyper command or not to seek hyper command and or your choice of specialization, no? You just don't have any control over how the powers that be choose to utilize your skills or where you get sent after completion of said specialization, no?

I get the feeling that being on track for the Crusher is much like being a professor on tenure track. Failing to achieve tenure gets you a one-way ticket off the campus.

There is a question trying to coalesce in my brain, but confusion hinders it from forming. I'll simply forge ahead and wade into hyper without a command, LOL ...

The Crusher prepares an officer for hyper command of the larger ships above a DD. No light (CL) or heavy cruisers (DL).

However, a DD is hyper capable. So it isn't the issue of being denied a hyper command or command of a DD wouldn't be possible. So what exactly does the Crusher prepare one for? The first thing that comes to mind before the neurons fire is that you're denied a ship capable of slotting in a 'wall of battle.' A capital ship. But that isn't it either, because CLs and DLs aren't capital ships either. Is it the ordnance that the Crusher better prepares one to wield? I'm not sure that adequately fingers the distinction either because I have a distinct feeling that the RMN would place Apollo missiles aboard a LAC if possible.

So is it distinctly the ability to fight a ship in a wall of battle that distinguishes the Crushers from the rest of the pack? Because a captain with lots of DD experience could fight her ship as well as any other larger ships. You only have to look to Harrington's efforts in the War Games with Hawkwing, a lowly DD for that. Although she had already completed the Crusher, I will go out on a limb and say she could have accomplished the same thing on raw talent alone. 'Course I'm rather partial to Lady Harrington and could be embellishing her tactical acumen before the Crusher.

Clearing up a couple points of where you appear to be confused:

1) The RMN uses CL (light cruiser) and CA (heavy cruiser) for the class designations of the next two larger hyper combatants larger than a DD (destroyer).

2) Honor finished the Crusher immediately before taking command of HMS Fearless (CL) in:
On Basilisk Station Chapter 1 wrote:That grin was a violation of her normally severe "professional expression," but she was entitled. Indeed, she felt more than mildly virtuous for holding herself to a grin when what she really wanted to do was spin on her toes, fling her arms wide, and carol her delight to her no-doubt shocked fellow passengers. But she was almost twenty-four years old—over forty Terran standard years—and it would never, never have done for a commander of the Royal Manticoran Navy to be so undignified, even if she was about to assume command of her first cruiser.
She smothered another chuckle, luxuriating in the unusual sense of complete and simple joy, and pressed a hand to the front of her tunic. The folded sheaf of archaic paper crackled at her touch—a curiously sensual, exciting sound—and she closed her eyes to savor it even as she savored the moment she'd worked so hard to reach.
Fifteen years—twenty-five T-years—since that first exciting, terrifying day on the Saganami campus. Two and a half years of Academy classes and running till she dropped. Four years working her way without patronage or court interest from ensign to lieutenant. Eleven months as sailing master aboard the frigate Osprey, and then her first command, a dinky little intrasystem LAC. It had massed barely ten thousand tons, with only a hull number and not even the dignity of a name, but God how she'd loved that tiny ship! Then more time as executive officer, a turn as tactical officer on a massive superdreadnought. And then—finally!—the coveted commanding officer's course after eleven grueling years. She'd thought she'd died and gone to heaven when they gave her Hawkwing, for the middle-aged destroyer had been her very first hyper-capable command, and the thirty-three months she'd spent in command had been pure, unalloyed joy, capped by the coveted Fleet "E" award for tactics in last year's war games. But this—!

***Snip***

She frowned a bit at that thought while she punched up a tube capsule. All the scramble to get her here seemed out of character for a navy that preferred to do things in an orderly fashion. When she'd been given Hawkwing, she'd known two months in advance; this time, she'd been literally snatched out of the ATC graduation ceremonies and hustled off to Admiral Courvosier's office with no warning at all.
The capsule arrived, and she stepped into it, still frowning and rubbing gently at the tip of her nose. Nimitz roused to lift his chin from the top of her beret and nipped her ear with the scolding tug he saved for the unfortunately frequent moments when his companion worried. Honor clicked her teeth gently at him and reached up to scratch his chest, but she didn't stop worrying, and he sighed in exasperation.
Now why, she wondered, was she so certain Courvosier had deliberately bustled her out of his office and off to her new assignment? The admiral was a bland-faced, cherubic little gnome of a man with a bent for creating demonic tac problems, and she'd known him for years. He'd been her Fourth Form Tactics instructor at the Academy, the one who'd recognized an inborn instinct and honed it into something she could command at will, not something that came and went. He'd spent hours working with her in private when other instructors worried about her basic math scores and, in a very real sense, had saved her career before it had actually begun, yet this time there'd been something almost evasive about him. She knew his congratulations and satisfied pride in her had been real, but she couldn't shake the impression that there'd been something else, as well. Ostensibly, the rush was all because of the need to get her to Hephaestus to shepherd her new ship through its refit in time for the upcoming Fleet exercise, yet HMS Fearless was only a single light cruiser, when all was said. It seemed unlikely her absence would critically shift the balance in maneuvers planned to exercise the entire Home Fleet!
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: THE C R U S H E R
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:38 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Vince wrote:
cthia wrote:No doubt. Nonetheless, that is only true to a point isn't it? You do have control over your choice of whether to actually seek hyper command or not to seek hyper command and or your choice of specialization, no? You just don't have any control over how the powers that be choose to utilize your skills or where you get sent after completion of said specialization, no?

I get the feeling that being on track for the Crusher is much like being a professor on tenure track. Failing to achieve tenure gets you a one-way ticket off the campus.

There is a question trying to coalesce in my brain, but confusion hinders it from forming. I'll simply forge ahead and wade into hyper without a command, LOL ...

The Crusher prepares an officer for hyper command of the larger ships above a DD. No light (CL) or heavy cruisers (DL).

However, a DD is hyper capable. So it isn't the issue of being denied a hyper command or command of a DD wouldn't be possible. So what exactly does the Crusher prepare one for? The first thing that comes to mind before the neurons fire is that you're denied a ship capable of slotting in a 'wall of battle.' A capital ship. But that isn't it either, because CLs and DLs aren't capital ships either. Is it the ordnance that the Crusher better prepares one to wield? I'm not sure that adequately fingers the distinction either because I have a distinct feeling that the RMN would place Apollo missiles aboard a LAC if possible.

So is it distinctly the ability to fight a ship in a wall of battle that distinguishes the Crushers from the rest of the pack? Because a captain with lots of DD experience could fight her ship as well as any other larger ships. You only have to look to Harrington's efforts in the War Games with Hawkwing, a lowly DD for that. Although she had already completed the Crusher, I will go out on a limb and say she could have accomplished the same thing on raw talent alone. 'Course I'm rather partial to Lady Harrington and could be embellishing her tactical acumen before the Crusher.

Clearing up a couple points of where you appear to be confused:

1) The RMN uses CL (light cruiser) and CA (heavy cruiser) for the class designations of the next two larger hyper combatants larger than a DD (destroyer).

2) Honor finished the Crusher immediately before taking command of HMS Fearless (CL) in:
On Basilisk Station Chapter 1 wrote:That grin was a violation of her normally severe "professional expression," but she was entitled. Indeed, she felt more than mildly virtuous for holding herself to a grin when what she really wanted to do was spin on her toes, fling her arms wide, and carol her delight to her no-doubt shocked fellow passengers. But she was almost twenty-four years old—over forty Terran standard years—and it would never, never have done for a commander of the Royal Manticoran Navy to be so undignified, even if she was about to assume command of her first cruiser.
She smothered another chuckle, luxuriating in the unusual sense of complete and simple joy, and pressed a hand to the front of her tunic. The folded sheaf of archaic paper crackled at her touch—a curiously sensual, exciting sound—and she closed her eyes to savor it even as she savored the moment she'd worked so hard to reach.
Fifteen years—twenty-five T-years—since that first exciting, terrifying day on the Saganami campus. Two and a half years of Academy classes and running till she dropped. Four years working her way without patronage or court interest from ensign to lieutenant. Eleven months as sailing master aboard the frigate Osprey, and then her first command, a dinky little intrasystem LAC. It had massed barely ten thousand tons, with only a hull number and not even the dignity of a name, but God how she'd loved that tiny ship! Then more time as executive officer, a turn as tactical officer on a massive superdreadnought. And then—finally!—the coveted commanding officer's course after eleven grueling years. She'd thought she'd died and gone to heaven when they gave her Hawkwing, for the middle-aged destroyer had been her very first hyper-capable command, and the thirty-three months she'd spent in command had been pure, unalloyed joy, capped by the coveted Fleet "E" award for tactics in last year's war games. But this—!

***Snip***

She frowned a bit at that thought while she punched up a tube capsule. All the scramble to get her here seemed out of character for a navy that preferred to do things in an orderly fashion. When she'd been given Hawkwing, she'd known two months in advance; this time, she'd been literally snatched out of the ATC graduation ceremonies and hustled off to Admiral Courvosier's office with no warning at all.
The capsule arrived, and she stepped into it, still frowning and rubbing gently at the tip of her nose. Nimitz roused to lift his chin from the top of her beret and nipped her ear with the scolding tug he saved for the unfortunately frequent moments when his companion worried. Honor clicked her teeth gently at him and reached up to scratch his chest, but she didn't stop worrying, and he sighed in exasperation.
Now why, she wondered, was she so certain Courvosier had deliberately bustled her out of his office and off to her new assignment? The admiral was a bland-faced, cherubic little gnome of a man with a bent for creating demonic tac problems, and she'd known him for years. He'd been her Fourth Form Tactics instructor at the Academy, the one who'd recognized an inborn instinct and honed it into something she could command at will, not something that came and went. He'd spent hours working with her in private when other instructors worried about her basic math scores and, in a very real sense, had saved her career before it had actually begun, yet this time there'd been something almost evasive about him. She knew his congratulations and satisfied pride in her had been real, but she couldn't shake the impression that there'd been something else, as well. Ostensibly, the rush was all because of the need to get her to Hephaestus to shepherd her new ship through its refit in time for the upcoming Fleet exercise, yet HMS Fearless was only a single light cruiser, when all was said. It seemed unlikely her absence would critically shift the balance in maneuvers planned to exercise the entire Home Fleet!
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

1) No, I actually understood this, as a consequence my question begs to know the difference between being allowed to command a DD and not a CL or DL, in light of neither being a capital ship? IOW, cutting non-hyper capable command (non Crusher certified) off at a DD seems arbitrary to me without further input. Sorry my question wasn't clear, because it isn't in my head either.

2) I'm glad that is the case because it makes my point even more poignant. Honor accomplished her amazing feat in the War-games by popping D'Orville w/o Crusher credentials, though she'd probably completed the lion's share of the course by then. Even so.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: THE C R U S H E R
Post by The E   » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:52 pm

The E
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cthia wrote:1) No, I actually understood this, as a consequence my question begs to know the difference between being allowed to command a DD and not a CL or DL, in light of neither being a capital ship? IOW, cutting non-hyper capable command (non Crusher certified) off at a DD seems arbitrary to me without further input. Sorry my question wasn't clear, because it isn't in my head either.


What's a DL?

Oh. It's you making up a designation for CAs for some unfathomable reason. Got it.

The probable reason why DDs can be commanded by people who haven't yet gone through ATC is likely because DDs will only rarely be assigned to duties that involve long-term independent operation. They're either doing fleet escort or scout duties, in which case they aren't going to operate alone, or they're doing convoy escort, in which case they're also very likely to not be convoy lead. RMN doctrine uses Cruisers as jack-of-all-trades ships that are expected to do things like independent anti-piracy patrols; a role which you generally want to give to people who do have a few years of experience ships.

2) I'm glad that is the case because it makes my point even more poignant. Honor accomplished her amazing feat in the War-games by popping D'Orville w/o Crusher credentials, though she'd probably completed the lion's share of the course by then. Even so.


You have to work on your reading comprehension. Nothing in the text suggests that Honor was graduated early, only that she was pulled away from the traditional post-graduation festivities in a hurry. By the time Courvoisier told her that she'd be getting Fearless, she had passed the Crusher in the regularly alotted time.
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Re: THE C R U S H E R
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:20 pm

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

The E wrote:
cthia wrote:1) No, I actually understood this, as a consequence my question begs to know the difference between being allowed to command a DD and not a CL or DL, in light of neither being a capital ship? IOW, cutting non-hyper capable command (non Crusher certified) off at a DD seems arbitrary to me without further input. Sorry my question wasn't clear, because it isn't in my head either.


What's a DL?

Oh. It's you making up a designation for CAs for some unfathomable reason. Got it.

The probable reason why DDs can be commanded by people who haven't yet gone through ATC is likely because DDs will only rarely be assigned to duties that involve long-term independent operation. They're either doing fleet escort or scout duties, in which case they aren't going to operate alone, or they're doing convoy escort, in which case they're also very likely to not be convoy lead. RMN doctrine uses Cruisers as jack-of-all-trades ships that are expected to do things like independent anti-piracy patrols; a role which you generally want to give to people who do have a few years of experience ships.

2) I'm glad that is the case because it makes my point even more poignant. Honor accomplished her amazing feat in the War-games by popping D'Orville w/o Crusher credentials, though she'd probably completed the lion's share of the course by then. Even so.


You have to work on your reading comprehension. Nothing in the text suggests that Honor was graduated early, only that she was pulled away from the traditional post-graduation festivities in a hurry. By the time Courvoisier told her that she'd be getting Fearless, she had passed the Crusher in the regularly alotted time.


Have you not yet learned that the tone of my posts may match what I receive? Your lack of manners denote some hidden psychological problems, perhaps the resentment of some latent effect of missing out on being breast fed. I can send you some plastic nipples to stand in for your ravenous need if it is that important to you. Your persistent ill manners denote someone stuck in Tanner Stage 3. Do you think you will ever outgrow it, or did you inadvertently receive the Generation 3 prolong treatment that has you stuck in the dumdrums?

It's getting old. I'm learning not to expect much from you. However, shan't you expect more of yourself?

My apology to everyone else. DL should be CA. Think that's bad, I was once calling them HCs. Yet I'd much rather live with that faux pas than yours.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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