THE C R U S H E R

Honor had the Meyerdahl Beta modification which included the IQ enhancer. Most of the Harrington descendants of Meyerdahl Beta recipients placed in the 99th percentile in intelligence tests, with only three known descendants rating in the 95th percentile. -wiki

I wonder if Honor was one of the three in the lower 95th percentile since Courvoisier stated her difficulty, or rather anxiety, with mathematics.

The more I look into it the more I wonder how Young didn't wash out, even with assistance from the North Hollow files.

Textev gave us that there's a significant amount of mathematics that a CO has to perform on the spot, even after acquiring a ship. Remember the plots Honor laid, in in her head, in the OBS system when she took out that Courier ship? Yet textev states that Pavel Young wasn't the brightest stylus in the box.

The E wrote:

cthia wrote:The syllabus lists the Advanced Tactical Course (ATC) as a prerequisite for hyper command. I assume you can still become a captain or even an admiral of a non hyper-capable ship, those smaller than a light cruiser?

That doesn't seem right. So it must be wrong. Huh?

It is wrong.

You can, under specific circumstances, get a hyper capable command without going through the Crusher first. Honor herself did so when she commanded HMS Hawkwing; but it is implied that passing the ATC is an absolute requirement for larger commands. If you can't pass it, you will not be able to get into a line position and are most likely to end your career on the staff track. The chances of getting flag rank are basically nil.

munroburton wrote:Not quite nil. Staff officers can rise to flag ranks. The only particular examples I can think of are Patricia Givens and Jonas Adcock.

Surely Givens passed the ATC? She completed a stint as Second Space Lord.

I can't believe that anyone would have a meaningful desk job failing the ATC. There's desk jobs then there's desk jobs.

Fox2! wrote:But the surest path to command is tactical. Yes, young Webster had command of one of the Q-ships Honor took to Silesia, and he was a Communications specialist. But the Q-ships were not a major combatant. And for all we know, he did go through The Crusher beforehand. Given that he was a graduate of the HMS Fearless school of tactical survival, he was probably headed toward The Crusher despite his non-tactical career track.

Speaking of which, have we seen anything of young Capt (JG) Webster since the Silesia affair?

He was also a Webster, so he would get his chance at The Crusher anyway.

Think I saw his name as a squadron commander somewhere, but can't swear to it and haven't read the book in question for too long.

As for acquiring rank without passing The Crusher, it is possible, but as a line specialist - so no command authority. Pretty sure that's stated somewhere - along with a cap on the rank that can be achieved even then.

WLBjork wrote:

Fox2! wrote:But the surest path to command is tactical. Yes, young Webster had command of one of the Q-ships Honor took to Silesia, and he was a Communications specialist. But the Q-ships were not a major combatant. And for all we know, he did go through The Crusher beforehand. Given that he was a graduate of the HMS Fearless school of tactical survival, he was probably headed toward The Crusher despite his non-tactical career track.

Speaking of which, have we seen anything of young Capt (JG) Webster since the Silesia affair?

He was also a Webster, so he would get his chance at The Crusher anyway.

Think I saw his name as a squadron commander somewhere, but can't swear to it and haven't read the book in question for too long.

Rear Admiral Samuel Webster commanded a battlesquadron at Sidemore (see chapter 42 of _War of Honor_). I have not found his name in any subsequent titles.

cthia wrote:Textev gave us that there's a significant amount of mathematics that a CO has to perform on the spot, even after acquiring a ship. Remember the plots Honor laid, in in her head, in the OBS system when she took out that Courier ship? Yet textev states that Pavel Young wasn't the brightest stylus in the box.

I don't think that COs have to solve complex 3D math problems on the fly on a day-to-day basis. That's what computers (and navigators) are for.

munroburton wrote:Not quite nil. Staff officers can rise to flag ranks. The only particular examples I can think of are Patricia Givens and Jonas Adcock.

Granted, but I would imagine that there are comparatively fewer slots available there, and they're mostly going to go to people who were on that career track from the start.

Possibly a red herring but the Australian military has obvious links to the UK and US systems and we have the Command Course. Usually taken at the Major or Lieutenant Colonel level, and while it doesn't preclude promotion to full Colonel and above, obviously having it is a major (sorry not a pun) advantage in further rises.
I was a senior Defence Civilian (different to a public servant working in defence in that I had military command tasks), who actually guest lectured at our Command Course on logistics and finance, as an extra regimental duty.
I was invited to join the final test on one that involved a very large sand table with toy soldiers and a nearly impossible scenario. Channelling Sun Tzu I got the highest score, which endeared me to the career military there (not).

I've begun the grueling course myself now, at least the video part of it. And it is blooming questions...

There was one Royal Navy instructor who was said to have a tough reputation. On one course he failed three of his students. Courvoisier was Honor's classroom instructor. But was it given who actually administered the actual "exam?" If there are several, as it is implied of the Perisher, then the North Hollow files could have been used to influence said instructor to fail Honor. And policy would have it that she'd have been done, as far as a more prestigious hyper command is concerned. And that may have indeed spelled death for someone like Honor. Or perhaps even to the Star Kingdom. 'ouch'

But really, the average Joe's life wouldn't have literally been over, but there are some people who are simply not cut out to sit at a desk and push paper, where the highlight of your life is the new brass pen sitting in its dock. And though I don't mean it literally per the Honorverse, I've known people to kill themselves for much less. Like a guy I once knew who applied for but failed to be accepted to a particular Ivy League school and offed himself.

Another question is whether anyone can command any size ship after successfully completing the Crusher? I know these ships are parceled out as a function of seniority. But that in itself is a function of available ships to command. If Bolthole started churning out Heavy Cruisers and SDs in job lots then any officer having successfully completed the Crusher would be eligible? Or, is it much like being a captain of an airliner where familiarity with the handling of a smaller and much less sophisticated plane must come first?
.

cthia wrote:I can't believe that anyone would have a meaningful desk job failing the ATC. There's desk jobs then there's desk jobs.

Why not? The crusher trains and evaluates you on tactical military command skills. But BuPers, BuShip, BuWeap, etc don't rely on your personal tactical acumen. Neither do the medical or engineering tracks.
There are only about 4 people on a starship likely to directly need those skills, Captain, XO, and the top 2 in the tactical department. And even the XO sometimes hasn't yet attended if it's their first stint as an XO.

So I'd guess well under half of RMN officers are ever offered a slot at the Crusher, much less pass it, because even over their entire carreers most officers aren't in line to command a major warship.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I can't believe that anyone would have a meaningful desk job failing the ATC. There's desk jobs then there's desk jobs.

Why not? The crusher trains and evaluates you on tactical military command skills. But BuPers, BuShip, BuWeap, etc don't rely on your personal tactical acumen. Neither do the medical or engineering tracks.
There are only about 4 people on a starship likely to directly need those skills, Captain, XO, and the top 2 in the tactical department. And even the XO sometimes hasn't yet attended if it's their first stint as an XO.

So I'd guess well under half of RMN officers are ever offered a slot at the Crusher, much less pass it, because even over their entire carreers most officers aren't in line to command a major warship.

You're right, dunce cap award for me. I'll wear it throughout the day. I was thinking that someone who really had a craving for hyper command wouldn't find anything else personally rewarding to them. And that the qualifications of someone who does have hyper command under his or her belt would be better qualified at BuShips, BuWeap or even BuPers. BuPers because you've commanded the bigger ships and are more aware of the internecine politics aboard a larger ship. Some fish just shouldn't be placed with others. I admit those thoughts to be those of someone wet behind the ears.

Honor could certainly have sought out a rewarding teaching position and still may end up doing that. But would it have been rewarding to her to do it full time as her all and all, end all be all?


****** *

In the Royal Navy you are given these powerful ships while you're in your 30's. Another thing to note is that an engineer transferred over to take on the Perisher after failing an engineering exam and he was ousted there. Which means in the Royal British Navy your career track doesn't equally mean all that much.

Under the Royal Navy's Perisher a failure to pass it means a career in ruins. There is no second chance. The administer of the course/exam carried these officer's future in their hands. A fail means the officer must leave the submarine service.

My question as it applies to the Honorverse is whether you may still elect to command a light cruiser or even less, a LAC, if you'd want to? A desk job isn't the only option in the RMN is it? At least it could place you where the action is, where your actions as a consequence may get you noticed on merit and accomplishment. As in if you saved the life of the Queen, e.g., as Honor saved Elizabeth and Benjamin with her runabout.

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Why not? The crusher trains and evaluates you on tactical military command skills. But BuPers, BuShip, BuWeap, etc don't rely on your personal tactical acumen. Neither do the medical or engineering tracks.
There are only about 4 people on a starship likely to directly need those skills, Captain, XO, and the top 2 in the tactical department. And even the XO sometimes hasn't yet attended if it's their first stint as an XO.

So I'd guess well under half of RMN officers are ever offered a slot at the Crusher, much less pass it, because even over their entire carreers most officers aren't in line to command a major warship.

You're right, dunce cap award for me. I'll wear it throughout the day. I was thinking that someone who really had a craving for hyper command wouldn't find anything else personally rewarding to them. And that the qualifications of someone who does have hyper command under his or her belt would be better qualified at BuShips, BuWeap or even BuPers. BuPers because you've commanded the bigger ships and are more aware of the internecine politics aboard a larger ship. Some fish just shouldn't be placed with others. I admit those thoughts to be those of someone wet behind the ears.

Honor could certainly have sought out a rewarding teaching position and still may end up doing that. But would it have been rewarding to her to do it full time as her all and all, end all be all?


****** *

In the Royal Navy you are given these powerful ships while you're in your 30's. Another thing to note is that an engineer transferred over to take on the Perisher after failing an engineering exam and he was ousted there. Which means in the Royal British Navy your career track doesn't equally mean all that much.

Under the Royal Navy's Perisher a failure to pass it means a career in ruins. There is no second chance. The administer of the course/exam carried these officer's future in their hands. A fail means the officer must leave the submarine service.

My question as it applies to the Honorverse is whether you may still elect to command a light cruiser or even less, a LAC, if you'd want to? A desk job isn't the only option in the RMN is it? At least it could place you where the action is, where your actions as a consequence may get you noticed on merit and accomplishment. As in if you saved the life of the Queen, e.g., as Honor saved Elizabeth and Benjamin with her runabout.

From what we've been told a LAC command does not require you to be an ATC graduate. And you sometimes, very rarely, can get a first hyper-capable command (like a destroyer; especially an older one) without attending the ATC. But you'd almost certainly be assigned to attend ATC before any chance of a second command. And if you didn't pass you wouldn't get a second command, you'd end up in some other non-command possition.

But there are a ton of jobs that aren't warship command that also aren't desk jobs; aboard ship Engineering, Medical, Weapons, Communications, Flight Operations, pilot, etc. don't require ATC graduates - even for department heads. (also there are 'desk jobs' and then there are 'desk jobs'; being on an Admiral shipboard staff, helping coordinate a squadron, or fleet is probably much more engrossing way to fly a desk than managing the spare parts inventory in a shipyard).

However, being fair, in most of those non-command tracks you'd eventually end up promoted to a station or shipyard.