Chattel Slavery

Most slavery in the Honorverse is of the genetic kind. Pirates sometimes take technicians from their prizes aboard to work the systems pirates don't know the care and feeding of, especially the young and pretty females.

Does anybody practice actual (non-genetic-based) chattel slavery? Swoop down on a Verge planet, collect the people there of, and haul them off for sale into a life of hard labor on only slightly more prosperous planet, or into some Barbarian potentate's harem? Or raid passenger liners, and do likewise?

I would think no slavery of any type would be tolerated in the Honorverse.

However, I would imagine that many planets of the League probably feel like slaves to OFS. Dresdeners certainly feel like slaves, as pretty much the feel I got from Helga Boltitz.

I always thought the Medusans would inevitably be exploited as such, with their dependency on drugs and a seeming lack of education.

cthia wrote:I would think no slavery of any type would be tolerated in the Honorverse.

However, I would imagine that many planets of the League probably feel like slaves to OFS. Dresdeners certainly feel like slaves, as pretty much the feel I got from Helga Boltitz.

I always thought the Medusans would inevitably be exploited as such, with their dependency on drugs and a seeming lack of education.

Don't know that besides the technicality once they pass out of Manpowers' hands and become chattel slaves to be exchanged at will there is any difference. And Warnicke sort of held the entire planet as slaves, didn't he?

cthia wrote:I would think no slavery of any type would be tolerated in the Honorverse.

However, I would imagine that many planets of the League probably feel like slaves to OFS. Dresdeners certainly feel like slaves, as pretty much the feel I got from Helga Boltitz.

I always thought the Medusans would inevitably be exploited as such, with their dependency on drugs and a seeming lack of education.

Agreed, chattel slavery would be no more tolerated than the genetic kind. But just as genetic slavery lurks in the outways and dark corners of the League, the Silesian Confederation, and even within Manticoran and Haven't society, so might chattel slavery. The Melungeon other ranks seem to be treated treated as chattels by their officers.

WeirdlyWired wrote:

cthia wrote:I would think no slavery of any type would be tolerated in the Honorverse.

However, I would imagine that many planets of the League probably feel like slaves to OFS. Dresdeners certainly feel like slaves, as pretty much the feel I got from Helga Boltitz.

I always thought the Medusans would inevitably be exploited as such, with their dependency on drugs and a seeming lack of education.

Don't know that besides the technicality once they pass out of Manpowers' hands and become chattel slaves to be exchanged at will there is any difference. And Warnicke sort of held the entire planet as slaves, didn't he?

Interesting thought. Once the genetic slaves leave Manpower's custody and control, they are essentially chattels. So they aren't like azi, who remain at least the wards of Reseune, regardless of who they were produced for or by. Unless an Alpha takes Final Tape, whence they become citizens. I can't think of any place where non-liberated genetic slaves (or their descendants) become full citizens.

Fox2! wrote:Most slavery in the Honorverse is of the genetic kind. Pirates sometimes take technicians from their prizes aboard to work the systems pirates don't know the care and feeding of, especially the young and pretty females.

Does anybody practice actual (non-genetic-based) chattel slavery? Swoop down on a Verge planet, collect the people there of, and haul them off for sale into a life of hard labor on only slightly more prosperous planet, or into some Barbarian potentate's harem? Or raid passenger liners, and do likewise?

It was noted that Manpower did this in the old days.

I tend to suspect that there isn't going to be enough money in dealing with barbarians to be worth the cost. The cost-reward ratio just isn't there.

I really can't see any profit in using people for hard labor. A D7 bulldozer can do the work of a hundred guys with shovels. People are more flexible, but a large number of enslaved strong young men is not exactly a safe thing to have around and you just can't get much useful labor out of a few. And high density power sources just are not a problem in the Honorverse.

Historically you can kidnap and isolate females (particularly younger teens or before) and can usually get them to mentally become part of your family/clan/tribe if you eventually treat them semi-decently, particularly once they have kids with their captors. This process also causes their captors to see them as part of their family/clan/tribe. Stockholm syndrome is the short term version of this. There are obvious evolutionary reasons why this is a useful feature, but this has limited applicability to the honorverse; unless you have a largely male group looking to set up for the long term on an isolated planet where nobody is going to asking uncomfortable questions of the women I can't see too many other applications.

And in an area connected to the human mainstream, all it takes is a single smuggled message from one of the women who is just playing along to bring your entire scheme to a sudden and violent end.

kzt wrote:

Fox2! wrote:Most slavery in the Honorverse is of the genetic kind. Pirates sometimes take technicians from their prizes aboard to work the systems pirates don't know the care and feeding of, especially the young and pretty females.

Does anybody practice actual (non-genetic-based) chattel slavery? Swoop down on a Verge planet, collect the people there of, and haul them off for sale into a life of hard labor on only slightly more prosperous planet, or into some Barbarian potentate's harem? Or raid passenger liners, and do likewise?

It was noted that Manpower did this in the old days.

I tend to suspect that there isn't going to be enough money in dealing with barbarians to be worth the cost. The cost-reward ratio just isn't there.

I really can't see any profit in using people for hard labor. A D7 bulldozer can do the work of a hundred guys with shovels. People are more flexible, but a large number of enslaved strong young men is not exactly a safe thing to have around and you just can't get much useful labor out of a few. And high density power sources just are not a problem in the Honorverse.

Historically you can kidnap and isolate females (particularly younger teens or before) and can usually get them to mentally become part of your family/clan/tribe if you eventually treat them semi-decently, particularly once they have kids with their captors. This process also causes their captors to see them as part of their family/clan/tribe. Stockholm syndrome is the short term version of this. There are obvious evolutionary reasons why this is a useful feature, but this has limited applicability to the honorverse; unless you have a largely male group looking to set up for the long term on an isolated planet where nobody is going to asking uncomfortable questions of the women I can't see too many other applications.

And in an area connected to the human mainstream, all it takes is a single smuggled message from one of the women who is just playing along to bring your entire scheme to a sudden and violent end.

It was mentioned once before that manpower's most popular slave line was the "technician" line. Intelligent, and given basic technical training, in a high tech universe, they were used to operate and maintain equipment. It was followed by the heavy physical type (like Hugh Arai), and the pleasure types.

In our reality, there are pretty much no jobs that no one will do. The average American might not want to pick tomatoes all summer, but throngs of Mexicans cross the border to do so. The oldest trade is still alive and well in virtually every city and town around the world. I cannot see this situation changing much in the future. There will always be someone willing to go to the most hideous places to do an awful job, for a small paycheck.

The only jobs that are difficult to fill are ones where the worker is guaranteed to die in a short period of time. In which case, slaves which are modified for specific environments where a normal human couldn't function might make sense. But any job other than that would be easily filled.

Theemile wrote:It was mentioned once before that manpower's most popular slave line was the "technician" line. Intelligent, and given basic technical training, in a high tech universe, they were used to operate and maintain equipment. It was followed by the heavy physical type (like Hugh Arai), and the pleasure types.

In our reality, there are pretty much no jobs that no one will do. The average American might not want to pick tomatoes all summer, but throngs of Mexicans cross the border to do so. The oldest trade is still alive and well in virtually every city and town around the world. I cannot see this situation changing much in the future. There will always be someone willing to go to the most hideous places to do an awful job, for a small paycheck.

The only jobs that are difficult to fill are ones where the worker is guaranteed to die in a short period of time. In which case, slaves which are modified for specific environments where a normal human couldn't function might make sense. But any job other than that would be easily filled.

If you offer enough money people will do even deadly jobs.

IIRC it has been mentioned that large scale slavery dos not make any economic sense once you reach industrial level technology. One of the major clues that something else was going on is that Manpowers books do not add up right. The cost of producing a slave exceeds the potential profits that their labor would produce.

Theemile wrote:The only jobs that are difficult to fill are ones where the worker is guaranteed to die in a short period of time. In which case, slaves which are modified for specific environments where a normal human couldn't function might make sense. But any job other than that would be easily filled.

Those should be mechanized. It's just not that hard to build an effective vision/manipulator in the Honorverse.

pnakasone wrote:IIRC it has been mentioned that large scale slavery dos not make any economic sense once you reach industrial level technology. One of the major clues that something else was going on is that Manpowers books do not add up right. The cost of producing a slave exceeds the potential profits that their labor would produce.

In addition, it's a pretty obvious trick to make it so the people you are breeding to sell as sex slaves like sex and being controlled a lot. Not via pain conditioning, but at a much more basic hormonal/mental level. You set it up so they bond to their owner. Essentially like an affectionate dog, self-aware and intelligent but focused on their owners wants and desires and subordinating their own.

However this has no real application the underlying objective of Manpower.