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Last use for SL SD captured

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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MAD-4A   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:51 am

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WeirdlyWired wrote:Obviously you either speed read these books or just scan them. As mentioned MOST Battle Fleet ships float in orbit in virtual[as opposed to literal] mothball conditions with only a skeleton rew aboard; the money for parts, maintenance, food etc going into the pockets of the Admirals. No spare parts, not tools for their lathes,no maintenace. Ships they boarded had missing lights, no maintenance on emergency hatches "wonder what other maintenance they neglected"
Yes, cause that's how they sent them into battle to invade Manticore, did you skim it? They sent the fleet in supplied, no-one would send ship into space without supplies, much less to invade another nations capitol - that's just ridiculous - they even gave them new top-of-the-line missile pods to tow behind them (which were flushed but aside from that, and what was expended, the ships that surrendered were fully stocked) so out of what 400 or so that were surrendered (between Spindle and MC) that's supplies for at-least 300, so a full division for up to 75 systems, and NO - as stated before - why does Manticore have to supply ANY manpower or support at all (aside from tugs to put them in parking orbits and lighters to guide in prize crews from other nations) just send out the word around the SL 'come and get'em.' It doesn't take a veteran Battlefleet crew to run a SD from point A to point B, yea when they get where their going they will need a full crew but a few local defense force officers with some recalled merchie reservists can occupy the hull, figure out the controls (for engineering and Navigation which is basically the same as in a merchie with a few extra bells and whistles they leave alone for now) and off they go, perhaps with a DD or CL that accompanied the prize crew in and escorts the SDs back home. that give more than ample time for the home navy to run through a crash-course recruitment/training program so full crews will be available when the hulls arrive. (don't even start to tell me that an entire fully colonized planet can't scrape together enough volunteers to man 4 SDs that would just be idiocy.)
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MAD-4A   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:57 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:First, in those cases the captured ships weren't all that obsolete.
So a 1000tn "Protected Cruiser" with a broadside of 2x12cm gins and 1 14" TT and a top speed 1kt slower than your slowest BB is not 'that' obsolete? They were failed whips who lost. How 'obsolete' do you need?
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MAD-4A   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:19 am

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Duckk wrote: Fitting them with better extended range missiles ...
I didn't say too. I said give them to less fortunate nations as-is.
Duckk wrote:like increasing the elevation of the 11” guns on a Deutschland-class pre-dreadnought in the 1980s. She still wouldn’t have fared well against an Alpha Strike from the Nimitz.
They wouldn't be, what part of they aren't facing the Manti/GA fleet is so hard to comprehend?
- they would be facing the Solarian League - Frontier Fleet it would be like taking the Connecticut (or Lord Nelson) class and giving them to Poland to face the Deutschland Class. or more aptly (as these are SDs) taking the Captured König class and giving them to Greece to face the German Moltke Class (Goeben). Ok, yea, they're not Colorado or Nagato class, but Turkey (cer. 1930s) doesn't have them either.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by The E   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:44 am

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MAD-4A wrote:They wouldn't be, what part of they aren't facing the Manti/GA fleet is so hard to comprehend?
- they would be facing the Solarian League - Frontier Fleet it would be like taking the Connecticut (or Lord Nelson) class and giving them to Poland to face the Deutschland Class. or more aptly (as these are SDs) taking the Captured König class and giving them to Greece to face the German Moltke Class (Goeben). Ok, yea, they're not Colorado or Nagato class, but Turkey (cer. 1930s) doesn't have them either.


Bad argument though.

Let's break this down: Assume you are a core system* that has the capability in terms of homegrown industrial and orbital capability as well as in terms of manpower to acquire a bunch of SDs. The only reason to do so is because you believe the League is about to collapse, and you're planning to break away. In that case, you're still looking at the quite real possibility that what's going to attack you is going to be an overwhelming force of SLN ships.

In that situation, does it make sense to buy ships that are as powerful as the ships that are going to be used against you? No. You want a defensive force that can conceivably hold off an SLN task force, which means buying tech that is one or several steps beyond what the SLN is fielding right now.

Yes, selling these ships off to former League worlds is a thing you can do. However, the number of systems that can actually afford to buy these things and put them into service is strictly limited, and none of the Verge systems qualify. Basically, the only systems for which this is an actual option are the ones that are already operating a BatRon or two, and I'm pretty sure that, just like Beowulf, they're not exactly impressed with the quality of solarian shipbuilding and maintenance.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by munroburton   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:16 pm

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As soon as any Frontier Fleet raiding force notices their Verge target has two/eight/twenty-four/one hundred ex-BF SDs, what do you think will happen?

I think the FF raiders would run away and fetch the nearest Battle Fleet formation of superior numbers. We saw the League send 100 SDs against Beowulf's 36 - which would have been sticky for Beowulf had Manticore not helped out.

Nowhere near 400 or even 300 SDs were surrendered. At Spindle, 24 of 71 were hammered, leaving 47 undamaged. At Second Manticore, 296 of 427 were destroyed outright, leaving 131 and only a handful of the survivors were undamaged.

So the total of undamaged ex-SLN SDs at present is approximately 50, with another 130 requiring varying degrees of repair work.

It just doesn't add up. Even if they gave or sold all 180-odd ships to a single power, Battle Fleet can easily send three times as many ships and overwhelm them. Even disregarding the ~600 massed at Tasmania and Tsang's 100, the League still has another 900 active duty SDs sitting around.

Splitting them up into pairs is even worse. In this scenario, task groups of approximately 15 BCs with towed pods could take them. We saw it at First Hancock - 8 BCs managed to blow up a dreadnought with a pod-based first strike.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by kzt   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:44 pm

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I strongly suspect that battle fleet will be disbanded and the the crews used to man more effective ships as soon as they are ready.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Daryl   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:08 pm

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Just possibly the reason this thread won't die is that deep down people know that one operational Solly SD in OTL now would make them undisputed king of the world. Logically they are useless in the Honorverse, but emotionally people can't accept that.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MuonNeutrino   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:27 pm

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Daryl wrote:Just possibly the reason this thread won't die is that deep down people know that one operational Solly SD in OTL now would make them undisputed king of the world.

Hell, if I had one of the solly SDs in real life, screw being king of *this* stupid planet. Why would I want to be king over all these idiot humans? I'd offer my services to Elon Musk to help him colonize mars, and then recruit a bunch of other scientists and flip everyone left on earth the bird as we sail off to explore the galaxy.
Last edited by MuonNeutrino on Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by phillies   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:27 pm

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"which means buying tech that is one or several steps beyond what the SLN is fielding right now"

No, what you want is an effective defense. There are alternatives to high tech. Huge numbers of missiles and antimissiles buried in moons and nickel-iron asteroids towed into orbits, that weave around the defended planet, and adequate ECM are an alternative. Putting 1000 feet of nickel-iron between you and the attacker is decent armor. System defense missiles that have great range by being large comes to mind.

Quantity has a quality all its own.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:29 pm

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phillies wrote:"which means buying tech that is one or several steps beyond what the SLN is fielding right now"

No, what you want is an effective defense. There are alternatives to high tech. Huge numbers of missiles and antimissiles buried in moons and nickel-iron asteroids towed into orbits, that weave around the defended planet, and adequate ECM are an alternative. Putting 1000 feet of nickel-iron between you and the attacker is decent armor. System defense missiles that have great range by being large comes to mind.

Quantity has a quality all its own.


I notice that you don't include an overmanned, obsolete SD in that analysis. :D

Your analysis is essentially correct: there are easier and cheaper ways to defend a system than obsolete SDs. The smaller screening elements of Crandall and Filareta's forces would be far more useful and practical as "foreign aid" or "military assistance." The SDs are just useless.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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