Last use for SL SD captured

Could have sworn I posted this before, but can't seem to find it. Regardless, here is part of David's reply when I asked him about this topic when ART came out:

As far as weapons platforms go, they’re pretty useless as stands, and given the GA’s industrial position post-Oyster Bay, I can’t think of any remotely logical use of resources to try to turn them into semi-useful warships. Post-war there might be some reason in it, although I think it’s highly unlikely given that these are firmly “predreadnoughts” by Honorverse standards. Fitting them with better extended range missiles would be sort of like increasing the elevation of the 11” guns on a Deutschland-class predreadnought in the 1980s. She still wouldn’t have fared well against an Alpha Strike from the Nimitz.

MAD-4A wrote:

Castenea wrote:We have tried to beat this idea down
too many times, it just won't work.

Just because YOU say it wont?

Castenea wrote:A historical viginette:...

Yea and in 1898 the U.S. blasted the Spanish fleet into sunken derelicts at Manila bay - they were crap ships even for the time, so the U.S. scrapped them all as 'useless junk' ... oh wait, no they didn't they salvaged several of them and used them all the way past WWI. Just before this, the Japanese defeated the Chinese fleet at 1st Yellow sea ran there ships back to harbor and sunk them there with TBs before taking the harbor and scrapping all of their crappy ships, oh wait, no, there again they salvaged the ones they could and used them through WWI, even against the Russians at 2nd Yellow sea and Tsushima a decade later, but then the Russian ships they defeated were scrapped, oh no, yet again the crappy enemy ships sunk and captured were put back in service and served through WWI, some even being returned to Russia later. So if your going to use History as a pretext then History says 'back in service - somewhere'.

First, in those cases the captured ships weren't all that obsolete. Second ships of that era were still low tech enough that upgrading them to use (for example) guns consistent with the rest of your logistics pipeline wasn't a huge deal.
Third the countries putting them back into service had pretty extensive modern shipyards. And finally they were comparatively small additions to the total fleet size of the navies operating them.

None of that appears to apply to giving ex-SLN SDs to verge worlds.
They're way more obsolete compared to state of the art than the Spanish or Russian ships (which suffered more from poor maintenance and over-long intervals between refits).
It would be a massive undertaking to make them use the same weapons as more modern ships - not that to GA would release those weapons to verge worlds due to security concerns. But now somebody would have to set up production lines for cataphracts or for Trebuchets in order to be able to supply reloads to the verge worlds operating them.
Third the systems receiving them don't have the yards or expertise to handle the current maintenance needs (remember the boarding parties bitching about maintenance not being performed on something as important to crew survival as the emergency airlocks - god knows what else the apparently poorly motivated crews cut corners on) much less repairs or refits. So now someone else has to set up an SD capable yard with time to do refits for marginal economies that apparently don't have the foreign exchange to pay for a navy.
And the manning for a single SD would be many times the entire current LAC force these systems operate - so you need a huge number of people trained in thing you never had in LACs - a far cry from adding a few additional ships similar to classes you already operated a fair number of.

MAD-4A wrote:

WeirdlyWired wrote:9) to fight Pirates that, certainly by now, Admiral Sarnow and the RAN have pretty much put pins in.

No - what part of stand against Frontier Fleet is too hard to grasp?

And if you could man them with skilled troops you might be able to keep Frontier Fleet from seizing your world.
But you couldn't stop them from retaliating by raiding all trade and trashing any in-system resource extraction -- the SDs are too slow to chase off cruisers and BCs - and at best they've got the same missile range (assuming someone can keep them supplied with cataphracts; otherwise they've got grossly inferior missile range). Even trying to escort freighters odds are that a cruiser can nip into range and pop the merchie with a missile - an SD or two can't stop them all.

And even if FF can't convince BF to send over an SD squadron to squash the neo-barb flaunting their SLN prize SD a few BC squadrons with towed pods can smash any single SD. SD's don't come into their own until you've got enough to form a mutually supporting wall of battle that you can use to bull your way through to an objecting the enemy must defend.

Jonathan_S wrote:

MAD-4A wrote:No - what part of stand against Frontier Fleet is too hard to grasp?

And if you could man them with skilled troops you might be able to keep Frontier Fleet from seizing your world.
But you couldn't stop them from retaliating by raiding all trade and trashing any in-system resource extraction -- the SDs are too slow to chase off cruisers and BCs - and at best they've got the same missile range (assuming someone can keep them supplied with cataphracts; otherwise they've got grossly inferior missile range). Even trying to escort freighters odds are that a cruiser can nip into range and pop the merchie with a missile - an SD or two can't stop them all.

And even if FF can't convince BF to send over an SD squadron to squash the neo-barb flaunting their SLN prize SD a few BC squadrons with towed pods can smash any single SD. SD's don't come into their own until you've got enough to form a mutually supporting wall of battle that you can use to bull your way through to an objecting the enemy must defend.

And even if you give a polity a squadron or 2 of SDs, (which just 1 squadron, BTW, will catapult them into the top 2% of navies in the Honorverse. Currently, if you have a Waller squadron or more, you are in the top 25, or 1% of Honorverse navies; If we start handing them out, that % would have to grow to 2%) the SLN will just come back with a larger force to hammer it. Unless we grow every fleet to the size and tech of Manticore's, the SLN BF can hammer anyone they choose.

As I posted in another thread lately, you have to look realistically at what threats a navy faces. Other than the possibility that FF MAY come for them, someday, most Verge polities have to worry about pirates and other verge polities. David has already said that most piracy outside of Silesia is either the rowboat kind or the insider kind - neither can be resolved any better with an SD than it can with a LAC or DD.

In 1922, most Verge navies are described something like "a handful of Obsolete LACS and 2 Ancient destroyers, 1 unable for service as it's being used for parts for the 1st." Why are the navies like this if there is a serious threat? Because for the most part there isn't a threat that would require the high tech resources to modernize or maintain their navy. Of course, every planet who didn't expand their navy and paid the price when a strong pirate band came and demolished their system wished they had, but that is not the reality for most of the independent polities in the verge.

And then we have the handful of predators like Monica, with 5 CAs iirc, who would relish a stronger navy. Do we want to give them SDs to protect them from the "peaceful" Montanas nearby whom we just gave a couple SDs? We saw what they would do with gently used BCs, and it was ugly. (BTW, Even Monica with their own Military shipyards couldn't do routine upgrades to the "old" BCs without outside help and extensive shipyard upgrades. SDs would be many time worse. how much more difficult would maintenance and repairs be for a Montana, who previously only had a LAC force?) Proliferation is a bad thing, and would start more wars than it is intended to end.

In the future, after everything falls apart and newly independent Core worlds are clamoring for a defense, the situation may be different, but giving out SDs to the Verge because FF may come in the future is not the answer.

Castenea wrote:Ugh. We have tried to beat this idea down too many times, it just won't work.

A historical viginette: The US in the 1790's decided it needed a Navy, they did not start with the biggest baddest ships of the time (ships of the line), they started with Frigates. Admittedly these included a group of frigates that were the pocket battleships of their era (44 gun ships carrying 24 pounders on the main deck). Frigates were chosen because they were considered the best compromise between crew size and firepower, along with being useful when deployed independently.

There was also a POLITICAL reason why the largest ships were completed as frigates rather than SoLs ... Ships of the Line were considered Power Projection weapons, weapons (like 20th and 21st Century CVNs) used in Empire Building and maintaining and as the weapon platform of choice in strong-arming smaller, weaker powers to bend to your national will. Frigates were not.

Two deck SoLs (74 guns) were considered by the Navy and Congress but the two principle reasons to go with frigates only were the above and (primarily) the cost. As it was, a President type frigate like Constitution was a hellish expense for the infant U.S., far more so in proportion to the GNP back then than a CVN with airwing is to the GNP of the U.S. today.

That the Congress shelled out the money for THREE of these ships initially plus three 36 or 38 gun (Constellation type) frigates is incredible and far more far sighted than most politicians today are capable of IMHO.

Just the imaginings of an amateur naval historian here, but I can't help wondering what a Joshua Humphreys designed 74 gun ship would be like. Such a ship would, I think, be a match for any English 1st Rate including HMS Victory, 102 guns.

Oh, with regard to the SOLLY SDs ... turn 'em into paperweights. I'm sure you could produce enough from the recycled metal to provide nearly every Solarian League bureaucrat with one.

Duckk wrote:Could have sworn I posted this before, but can't seem to find it. Regardless, here is part of David's reply when I asked him about this topic when ART came out:

As far as weapons platforms go, they’re pretty useless as stands, and given the GA’s industrial position post-Oyster Bay, I can’t think of any remotely logical use of resources to try to turn them into semi-useful warships. Post-war there might be some reason in it, although I think it’s highly unlikely given that these are firmly “predreadnoughts” by Honorverse standards. Fitting them with better extended range missiles would be sort of like increasing the elevation of the 11” guns on a Deutschland-class predreadnought in the 1980s. She still wouldn’t have fared well against an Alpha Strike from the Nimitz.

You did. I can't remember when. but you did.

The fact that there are like a hundred fairly modern RMN SDs in storage was pretty convincing to me that there is no need for the RMN reusing anyone's captured ships.

And yet somehow the damn topic keeps getting resurrected over and over again. It's like there's some universal law that we must rehash the same tired arguments over and over again for no good reason. I guess we were overdue for our bi-monthly dose of 50 pointless pages on the subject.

MAD-4A wrote:

WeirdlyWired wrote:1)Build replacement parts in facilities we do not have.

Battleships carry their own replacement parts and machine shops onboard, even if you had to scavenge some parts from 1/2 of them that still leaves nearly 200 to sell/give away. (not even counting the parts removed from the cripples and wrecks that aren't in serviceable condition)

Obviously you either speed read these books or just scan them. As mentioned MOST Battle Fleet ships float in orbit in virtual[as opposed to literal] mothball conditions with only a skeleton rew aboard; the money for parts, maintenance, food etc going into the pockets of the Admirals. No spare parts, not tools for their lathes,no maintenace. Ships they boarded had missing lights, no maintenance on emergency hatches "wonder what other maintenance they neglected"

Yes perhaps they have lathe, mills etc. Do they have the bits and bobs to put on their machinery to actually turn and shape parts? Can you legally press POWs into labor gangs turning out parts for their ships to be used against their nation? IDK but I don't think so. SEM has virtually no trained machinists to turn them out, at least none that are not being used to turn out State-of-the_Art parts for MODERN ships being built by Haven to be outfitted either in Manticore or Beowulf.

WeirdlyWired wrote:4) then catch up on all the other neglected routine maintenance.

And what maintenance is it that they have been neglecting and why?[/quote]
answered above

WeirdlyWired wrote:5) Load them with the Cadre from Sagamami Island who you need to train the officers and ABs you need to provide skeleton crews to get them wherever you want them; because you don't have enough personnel to build the physical equipment you need and Sag cadre is needed for that because RH is soon to be churning out hulls for you to
outfit and crew.
6) But you will need to train complete crews at their Final Destination from citizens that have never owned a hyper-capable ship, even a merchant one.
7) Develop a Navy complete with Doctrine from scratch.Oh except for the 3 300 yo obsolete LACs and a couple of pinnaces the bought from FF 100 years ago for customs inspections.

So your saying that Manticore is the only planet in human space with any Naval training or facilities? What makes you think that? the Andermani, Haven, Erewhon and even Silesian Confederacy all have active navies and Naval training centers, while some systems may be 'back-water' you cant tell me that all of the systems on the other side of the League are back-water DA who can't fly a starship, how did they get there? As to training, they can train themselves using the ships own manuals. NO, the Manties do not need crews to get them there, did Brittan form crews to get the Sultan Osman I or Reşadiye to Turkey, no the Turks sent their own crews to pick them up (and were rebuffed as WWI broke out but that's beside the point) ... "we just received a message from Manticore: 'SDs available for free, latest League tech, If you what one send somebody to come pick it up.'"[/quote]

Andermani busy building crews for their new production and retraining for MAnty upgrades. Why should they train crews for the verge or even the shell worlds? realpolitik says more navies with "real" ships is more potential trouble down th road.

Haven still filling crews for their new construction. Likewise Erwhon. Have no idea where Barregos and Rozsak are getting crew for their Erewhon built ships, Bet its not Battle Fleet.

Last I heard Silesian Confederacy was in the process of being dismantled. Bulk of their "navy" were either,pirates,privateers, or mercenaries fighting in one civil uprising or another. Yeah! the perfect people to turn loose training crews with real power.

Lots of Stars out there with what 5=6 LACs and a couple of tin cans, one being scavanged for parts to keep the other running because the verge planets with a pot to piss in don't ususlly have a window to toss it out of. Yeah maybe 1000 oficers and enlisted total. 4000 needed to crew 1 SD. Last I heard Thandi Palane was having all sorts of trouble crewing the BBs and CAs etc Rozsak "gifted" Torch. And she was having trouble accepting the long supply tail needed to kep =even those ships operating. I'm sure every verge system is willing to ruinits economy running ships thet are not meant for System defence but for projecting power. which leads us back to The Andremani and realpolitik.

Scrap the SDs and give away the Screening units. easier to crew cheaper to support, better suited for taking on FF ships. Still have to bust the GSD building missiles for ypur ships.

WeirdlyWired wrote:9) to fight Pirates that, certainly by now, Admiral Sarnow and the RAN have pretty much put pins in.

No - what part of stand against Frontier Fleet is too hard to grasp?[/quote]
Point. However, isn't that the new SLN plan for taking the war to the GA? Use battleships and CAs that can outrun modern GA SDs. See FF Case Bucaneer. imagine how much easier it would be to evade Obsolete Solly SDs that have trouble keeping up with Merchant Ships.
And how well did it work out for Monica's brand new BCs with their crew sailing into combat manuals on their laps?

WeirdlyWired wrote:
Lots of Stars out there with what 5=6 LACs and a couple of tin cans, one being scavanged for parts to keep the other running because the verge planets with a pot to piss in don't ususlly have a window to toss it out of. Yeah maybe 1000 oficers and enlisted total. 4000 needed to crew 1 SD. Last I heard Thandi Palane was having all sorts of trouble crewing the BBs and CAs etc Rozsak "gifted" Torch. And she was having trouble accepting the long supply tail needed to kep =even those ships operating. I'm sure every verge system is willing to ruinits economy running ships thet are not meant for System defence but for projecting power. which leads us back to The Andremani and realpolitik.

Torch got nothing bigger than a CA, but 5 Mars CAs and 2-3 Frigate class CLs is nothing to sneeze at (Only the surviving Havenite built ships were mentioned to be gifted to Torch, the surviving ~21 CLs and DDs of Solarian manufacture were not mentioned.) Pre-battle, Torch has their Space station and 14 Frigates, with 3 Hauptman built DDs on order (their successful delivery is still a mystery).

If the Frigates follow traditional staffing levels, each ship has a crew of 120 (The crew size of the Silesian Gryf class Frigate, the only frigate crew size we have), or a total of around 1680 crewmembers. Each DD would have a crew of ~350, or ~1000 crew, which Torch should have in it's training pipeline, since the ships were being built during the battle of Torch. A Mars B CA has a crew of 1193, So if Torch's ships have large crews (which I highly doubt, given their pedigree and build specs), Torch can only crew 2 CAs with their current manpower - If they mothball virtually all their DDs and Frigates to do so.

So, no captured BBs or even BCs (which were the largest State Sec ships in the battle), and Torch still is having a hard time crewing it's gifts. further emphasizing your point of Torch ( and other Verge navies) not even being able to man 1 6500 crewman Scientist SD.

Torch has an absurdly small total population.

kzt wrote:Torch has an absurdly small total population.

And not a lot of scientists or ex-military in the small mix. Thandi is borrowing from Haven and Erewhon and a bit from SEM to even have the professional cadre to build an armed force around. And she is still trying to use a single chain of command.

Other Verge worlds with larger populations don't have the economic head start of a salable product with all the processing equipment and labor in place, The ones that do are being administered by Sollie Corporations through OFS.

Even Zunker with a wormhole had a few obsolete LACs and only the interference of Manticore keeps them from being OFS controlled.