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US Presidential Candidates

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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:28 pm

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noblehunter wrote:Unfortunately, he is uniquely qualified to be President at this time. He's the only one that meets the requirement of being selected by the Electoral College.

I have an issue with saying the President must do something that is not codified by law. While there might be grounds under the Emoluments clause to require Trump to dissolve his foreign business ties, there doesn't seem to be anything covering his domestic business.

If these entanglements were sufficient cause to deny him the Presidency, he wouldn't have been elected. As such, I think some restraint is warranted on the subject. None of this was kept secret or hidden from voters. They knew who and what they were voting for (poor souls).

Which is not to say that we shouldn't hammer Trump for his conflicts of interest. More that we shouldn't portray his refusal to divest as an inherent betrayal of the Republic.

Or maybe I'm just tone policing. Feh.
My bold to call attention.

Not so, there is a domestic component of the Emoluments Clause that may be even more significant of a stumbling block.

.
Last edited by cthia on Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Annachie   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:58 pm

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Um, Trump wont tell us what his business interests are so how the fuck can they be scrutinized?

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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by noblehunter   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:05 pm

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Well, I guess I stand corrected.

Too bad it's unlikely there will be a legal decision on this outside of impeachment proceedings.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Starsaber   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:21 pm

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noblehunter wrote:Well, I guess I stand corrected.

Too bad it's unlikely there will be a legal decision on this outside of impeachment proceedings.

And in our current hyperpartisan political environment (of at least the last 17 years), impeachment proceedings are unlikely as long as Congress is under the control of "his side".

And even if he is impeached, that would leave us with a president who redirected money in his state from AIDS research to trying to brainwash people into not being homosexual ("Conversion therapy").
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by smr   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:38 pm

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Annachie wrote:Um, Trump wont tell us what his business interests are so how the fuck can they be scrutinized?
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Would you release your tax returns for people who want to use the tax returns to try to impeach him or cause harm to his business's. Just because he is the opposition and you hate him, please try to at least be fair and objective. If not, just go fishing and enjoy life for a couple of weeks. The hatred in your heart is not healthy, the hatred is only going to get a person sick!

Look at TheE, he thinks that should be able to hold the sins of the father against the daughter. She did not run for office but it's ok to punish her company because she supports her father. Wow, what an idiot! Is it any wonder that he can not write a book that people would enjoy. Newsflash! Write a book that both sides can enjoy...don't limit your readership! Learn to see the other side's point of view...you don't have to agree with their pov but understand it.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by gcomeau   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:50 pm

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smr wrote:
Annachie wrote:Um, Trump wont tell us what his business interests are so how the fuck can they be scrutinized?
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Would you release your tax returns


Every presidential candidate has for the last 40 years.

So yeah... you don't get to use the "would you do it" argument. EVERYONE does it. Except him.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by biochem   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:28 pm

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Um, Trump wont tell us what his business interests are so how the fuck can they be scrutinized?
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Would you release your tax return

Every presidential candidate has for the last 40 years.

So yeah... you don't get to use the "would you do it" argument. EVERYONE does it. Except him.


I always thought some enterprising reporter should ask for Trump's tax returns from 7 years ago but they were too busy having hysterics to do any creative thinking.


(Trump's reason during the campaign was that he was being audited [normal for someone in Trump's position so an audited in and of itself isn't a red flag] and that his lawyers recommended against the release until the audit was resolved. That was probably true, it sounds like something lawyers would say. [yes I know the IRS said it wasn't against their regulations but that's just a distraction, he wasn't arguing IRS regulations he was arguing legal advice]. Anyway the maximum that the IRS audits is 6 years so his lawyers would have no excuses to recommend that 7 year old returns not be released).
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by WeirdlyWired   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:46 pm

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gcomeau wrote:
smr wrote:Um, Trump wont tell us what his business interests are so how the fuck can they be scrutinized?
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Would you release your tax returns


Every presidential candidate has for the last 40 years.

So yeah... you don't get to use the "would you do it" argument. EVERYONE does it. Except him.


Only president where Birth certificate was demanded was Obama first presidential candidate since whenever to fail to produce a tax return was Trump.

President specifically excluded by Constitution from domestic personal profit rule. Still perhaps gray area over his lease of some federal Post Office where lease specifically excludes any federal office holder from holding lease.

Give him enough time to sufficiently hack off enough peopleand who knows where congress may head.

The problem with legal challenges is "Standing," without that, you can not bring a challenge. You have to showthat you have real skin in the game.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:40 pm

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smr wrote:
Annachie wrote:Um, Trump wont tell us what his business interests are so how the fuck can they be scrutinized?
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Would you release your tax returns for people who want to use the tax returns to try to impeach him or cause harm to his business's. Just because he is the opposition and you hate him, please try to at least be fair and objective. If not, just go fishing and enjoy life for a couple of weeks. The hatred in your heart is not healthy, the hatred is only going to get a person sick!

Look at TheE, he thinks that should be able to hold the sins of the father against the daughter. She did not run for office but it's ok to punish her company because she supports her father. Wow, what an idiot! Is it any wonder that he can not write a book that people would enjoy. Newsflash! Write a book that both sides can enjoy...don't limit your readership! Learn to see the other side's point of view...you don't have to agree with their pov but understand it.
Smr, I would not want to release my tax returns either, but would, because I understand the impetus behind it. So too does Trump...

You must first understand why the practice is prevalent. It was adopted, perfected and is still ruthlessly utilized with abandon in the private sector even today. I assure you that Trump requires it of his high salaried employees as well. When I was fresh out of college, I left the slow paced life of the Carolinas for the promise and appeal of Silicon Valley in Sunny California. One of my earliest positions ran a background check on me that collected information that I didn't even know existed. They did a credit check on me and ran a check of the credit check and a check of the check, then reran the check. They also required the release of tax records way back then.

The company bent me over, shoved a microscope up my anal orifice and made me cough. I was appalled. I learned that six-figure a year salaries are not parceled out to just any old Tom, Dick or Harry. Not only is this a lot of money to blindly pay out to just anyone, but the positions that accompany such lucrative salaries often puts one in a position to steal a company blind. Actually, oftentimes these employees can literally bankrupt a company by stealing sensitive data and turning it over to rival companies.

In my case, software engineer/computer programmer made me privy to many sensitive trade secrets. Credit checks and tax returns allow a company to intercept people who pose a security risk of embezzlement, espionage and petty theft. It will flag huge gambling debts, failed investments, etc., etc., that flag an employee as a potential security risk before a loss is suffered. Silicon Valley is a hotbed of espionage even today. Many companies died in my heyday because of it.

You cannot blindly trust that someone has the credentials, salary history and success that his resume suggests. Case in point, Radio Shack employee David Edmondson who rose to the top to become CEO who to this day does not possess a college degree, was arrested and fired.

We the people have a right to know that our president isn't behind on his mortgage, in hock up to his ears, running away from creditors, half a step away from bankruptcy, drowning under gambling debts and or failed investments etc., etc., and is looking to the presidency as a lifeline. Theft and embezzlement pale in comparison to the crimes a shady president who is drowning financially can do. A president who is failing financially is in a position to really stand behind the country and the American people and bend us over without lube. Hence, the Emoluments Clauses.

I understand Trump not wanting to release his tax returns, but NOT if he runs for POTUS!!! Don't want to release them, don't run, simple.

Especially when he himself most certainly has collected detailed information on his highest paid employees as well. And you can bank on that!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Eyal   » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:46 am

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noblehunter wrote:Unfortunately, he is uniquely qualified to be President at this time. He's the only one that meets the requirement of being selected by the Electoral College.


To be clearer - there are cases where you have a candidate for a given job who is uniquely qualified in the sense that he brings some ability to the table that no-one else can. A exceptionally talented musician, or other artist, for example, a master programmer, etc. In such cases, you could arguably maintain that he brings such a benefit that you might consider bending a few rules for his admission.

I don't see Trump as meeting that bar. There are plenty of individuals whoe are at least as capable. In this specific election cycle he's unique in that he managed to get enough people in the right places to vote for him over all the other candidates, but that doesn't mean he's uniquely qualified to do the job of President (while I don't expect an officeholder to do great things in his first month of office, Trump's conduct is franly inept).

I have an issue with saying the President must do something that is not codified by law. While there might be grounds under the Emoluments clause to require Trump to dissolve his foreign business ties, there doesn't seem to be anything covering his domestic business.

If these entanglements were sufficient cause to deny him the Presidency, he wouldn't have been elected. As such, I think some restraint is warranted on the subject. None of this was kept secret or hidden from voters. They knew who and what they were voting for (poor souls).


The law specifies the minimum requirements for someone to hold office. That does not mean that these are the only consideration. Yes, in Trump's case, a sufficient amount of voters decided that his fincancial issues were tolerable. That does not mean his conduct is in fact ethical, just that enogh people either don't believe or don't care.

PeterZ wrote:http://www.cbsnews.com/news/237-millionaires-in-congress/
There didn't seem to be a problem with the Clinton's being broke when the left the White House and amassing $21 million by 2009. They did this while Hillary was a public servant.


From what I cn find, HRC made most of that money from speaking fees* and writing books, largely (or wholly, as far as active acts are involved, at least as far as I can tell) before she was SoS. It's a lot harder to parley an executive position to advance those interests, unless you want to accuse her of compromising American interests to advance book sales.

*And the fees she got for speaking were apparently not that exorbitant by the standards of celebrity speakers (don't get me wrong, I think the whole thing is stupid, but still)

We also have Alcee Hastings with a net worth of negative $4.7 million. He is either hiding assets or getting serious loans he doesn't have the assets to repay. That sounds like a man ripe for being influenced or is already being influenced with money.


I agree that seems to be a problem (can't say more because I have no idea who HAstings is beyond what the article says).

There are 237 millionaires in congress in 2009. That number grows to 268 by 2012.

That's the sort of opportunity to amass wealth while in public service that troubles me. It is easy to bribe public servants now. Making it more difficult to become a public servant if wealthy doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

My preference is that public servants cannot grow wealthy while a public servant. That smacks too much like third world kleptocracies. Lived and worked in Indonesia and I don't want to import any of their bad habits here.


Well, I agree, but the way to solve that is to make it more difficult for public servants to amass wealth (although how you do it legally is puzzling) rather than to choose someone who sees his (or hers) position as a money making opportunity...

biochem wrote:(Trump's reason during the campaign was that he was being audited [normal for someone in Trump's position so an audited in and of itself isn't a red flag] and that his lawyers recommended against the release until the audit was resolved. That was probably true, it sounds like something lawyers would say. [yes I know the IRS said it wasn't against their regulations but that's just a distraction, he wasn't arguing IRS regulations he was arguing legal advice]. Anyway the maximum that the IRS audits is 6 years so his lawyers would have no excuses to recommend that 7 year old returns not be released).


I'm sure he'd find something. Remember, he used to be in favor of releasing tax returns before he ran. Then, in January 16, he said he'd realease his returns soon. He kept promising to release them, then said he couldn't do so because of an audit (which we don't actually now is actually taking place, mind, since he didn't release any proof and the IRS doesn't comment on these matters).
Last September, he promised to release them once the audit was complete. And then after winning he said he wouldn't release them.

smr wrote:Would you release your tax returns for people who want to use the tax returns to try to impeach him or cause harm to his business's. Just because he is the opposition and you hate him, please try to at least be fair and objective. If not, just go fishing and enjoy life for a couple of weeks. The hatred in your heart is not healthy, the hatred is only going to get a person sick!


Because that's been the custom for 40 years and every other major Presidential candidate has done so? Trump is failing to meet the standard that Nixon did!

Look at TheE, he thinks that should be able to hold the sins of the father against the daughter. She did not run for office but it's ok to punish her company because she supports her father. Wow, what an idiot! Is it any wonder that he can not write a book that people would enjoy. Newsflash! Write a book that both sides can enjoy...don't limit your readership! Learn to see the other side's point of view...you don't have to agree with their pov but understand it.


In general, I agree, politicans' children should be off limits. It was despicable when Chelsea Clinton was attacked during the Clinton PResidency (seriously, publicly calling a teenaged girl the "White House dog"?), it was wrong in regard to the Bush daughters (although I didn't really here much about them, possibly because it was mostly limited to gossip rags rather than international news) and likewise to the Obama daughters (although again, I don't remember anything like what happened with Clinton, most of the obnoxious attacks seem directed at Michelle Obama). Ivanka Trump, however, is deeply involved in Trump's campaign and his Presidency, which makes her a rather more legitimate target (especially since the attacks being talked about are consumers boycotting her products rather than making personal attacks on her).
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