Last use for SL SD captured

Weird Harold wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:... they would and could act in anti-shipping roles. They were used a number of times in Alizon and Zanzibar as scouts, to see how Manticore was changing their system-defense doctrine, and destroy any shipping and resource extraction they could get in range of. ...

By your standards, pinnaces have anti-shipping capability.

Well pinnaces can shoot up merchy impeller nodes, so technically yes even pinnaces are anti-shipping small craft. But unarmed merchies can't shoot back, which makes a pinnace a moot point the second you try to force a warship to do something it doesn't want too.

Given the mechanics of travelling around in Honorverse, I designate shipping as anything that can move from solar system to solar system, aka "it has a hyper generator and weapons". If your ship is designed for, or is capable of, a stand up fight with something that has a hyper generator, your ship is anti-shipping.


Most Haven Sector LAC's missiles are simply smaller versions of the normal shipkillers, with multiple lasing rods, and all the other things that make hyper-ships anti-shipping oriented. Manticoran LAC's especially are almost entirely anti-shipping, with only some anti-LAC ability. Cimeterres were given slightly better anti-LAC ability, but are still more focused on offensive action against starships than LACs.

Katana's on the other hand, were designed and optimized for anti-LAC, and to a point they don't have any anti-shipping firepower at all. Except that Bu9 stated that Vipers do have a single lasing rod, and could damage even a destroyer [possibly older Solarian light cruisers too]. Which makes Katana's unique in being true dual-purpose anti-LAC/anti-shipping

Somtaaw wrote:
Well pinnaces can shoot up merchy impeller nodes, so technically yes even pinnaces are anti-shipping small craft. But unarmed merchies can't shoot back, which makes a pinnace a moot point the second you try to force a warship to do something it doesn't want too.

Given the mechanics of travelling around in Honorverse, I designate shipping as anything that can move from solar system to solar system, aka "it has a hyper generator and weapons". If your ship is designed for, or is capable of, a stand up fight with something that has a hyper generator, your ship is anti-shipping.


Most Haven Sector LAC's missiles are simply smaller versions of the normal shipkillers, with multiple lasing rods, and all the other things that make hyper-ships anti-shipping oriented. Manticoran LAC's especially are almost entirely anti-shipping, with only some anti-LAC ability. Cimeterres were given slightly better anti-LAC ability, but are still more focused on offensive action against starships than LACs.

Katana's on the other hand, were designed and optimized for anti-LAC, and to a point they don't have any anti-shipping firepower at all. Except that Bu9 stated that Vipers do have a single lasing rod, and could damage even a destroyer [possibly older Solarian light cruisers too]. Which makes Katana's unique in being true dual-purpose anti-LAC/anti-shipping

Mot to mention, we saw what a CA's PDLCs can do against a merchie at close range. A Katana's 3 SD class PDLCs can probsbly di s much better job....

Actually here is precedence for what should happen to them (as I have already suggested in previous threads)
http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Fourth_Battle_of_Yeltsin%27s_Starhttp://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Manticore%27s_Gift_class
They are sold or given to other (lower tech) navies along the SL borders - particularly those who are anti-SL or are being threatened by FF intervention. As I said before, a weapon doesn't have to be better than your best it only has to be better, or as good as, the enemies best.

FF is mostly BCs and a few hundred (even SL) SDs puttering around those border systems will make even a Byng-like idiot think twice.

Can we please stop resurrecting these damn threads? Every single suggestion of what to do with the SLN SDs has been beaten absolutely to death already (yes, this one too), and we don't need the deceased equines brought back for more flogging.

MuonNeutrino wrote:Can we please stop resurrecting these damn threads? Every single suggestion of what to do with the SLN SDs has been beaten absolutely to death already (yes, this one too), and we don't need the deceased equines brought back for more flogging.

Ok, we don't. BUT what else do we have to do for a year until Baen kicks out the next Honorverse Thriller?

1)Build replacement parts in facilities we do not have.
2) With trained macinists we do not have.
3) Installed by techs in their spare time after maintaining RMN ships.
4) then catch up on all the other neglected routine maintenance.
5) Load them with the Cadre from Sagamami Island who you need to train the officers and ABs you need to provide skeleton crews to get them wherever you want them; because you don't have enough personnel to build the physical equipment you need and Sag cadre is needed for that because RH is soon to be churning out hulls for you to
outfit and crew.
6) But you will need to train complete crews at their Final Destination from citizens that have never owned a hyper-capable ship, even a merchant one.
7) Develop a Navy complete with Doctrine from scratch.Oh except for the 3 300 yo obsolete LACs and a couple of pinnaces the bought from FF 100 years ago for customs inspections.
8) Because they do not have the resources or the desire to spend the money.
9) to fight Pirates that, certainly by now, Admiral Sarnow and the RAN have pretty much put pins in.

MAD-4A wrote:Actually here is precedence for what should happen to them (as I have already suggested in previous threads)
http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Fourth_Battle_of_Yeltsin%27s_Starhttp://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Manticore%27s_Gift_class
They are sold or given to other (lower tech) navies along the SL borders - particularly those who are anti-SL or are being threatened by FF intervention. As I said before, a weapon doesn't have to be better than your best it only has to be better, or as good as, the enemies best.

FF is mostly BCs and a few hundred (even SL) SDs puttering around those border systems will make even a Byng-like idiot think twice.

Ugh. We have tried to beat this idea down too many times, it just won't work.

A historical viginette: The US in the 1790's decided it needed a Navy, they did not start with the biggest baddest ships of the time (ships of the line), they started with Frigates. Admittedly these included a group of frigates that were the pocket battleships of their era (44 gun ships carrying 24 pounders on the main deck). Frigates were chosen because they were considered the best compromise between crew size and firepower, along with being useful when deployed independently.

MAD-4A wrote:Actually here is precedence for what should happen to them (as I have already suggested in previous threads)
http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Fourth_Battle_of_Yeltsin%27s_Starhttp://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Manticore%27s_Gift_class
They are sold or given to other (lower tech) navies along the SL borders - particularly those who are anti-SL or are being threatened by FF intervention. As I said before, a weapon doesn't have to be better than your best it only has to be better, or as good as, the enemies best.

FF is mostly BCs and a few hundred (even SL) SDs puttering around those border systems will make even a Byng-like idiot think twice.

Largely irrelevant, I'm afraid. 3rd and 4th Yeltsins both happened long before the RMN's technological revolutions started running way ahead of everyone else.

The DuQuesne-class of SDs, even from fifteen years ago, are larger and more capable then the Scientist today in almost every measure there is. Around half of all Scientists are at least 100 years out of date and even the more modern flights and refits are still effectively at least 50 years behind.

The Scientists are actually older units than those DuQuesnes - which only ever fought even older battleships, after being moderately refitted. This is a problem when you realise Frontier Fleet is more frequently modernised than Battle Fleet.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/si ... gton/106/1

Both respective sides only kept their most modern and youngest old-style SDs online for the second war - the Gryphons, Denevskis and Havens. In reserve, the GA has over 250 older wallers, like Sphinxes, Bellerophons, the aforementioned DuQuesnes and the Nouveaus.

From HoS:

Most of the surviving King Williams were sold to Alliance navies during the Janacek build down, including a full squadron transferred to the Erewhon Navy shortly before the resumption of hostilities and their subsequent exit from the Alliance.

In the most recent book, we've seen a single heavy cruiser supported by a single ammo ship, six LACs and a few destroyers spank an entire Solarian battlecruiser squadron.

In preceding books, we've also seen four Solarian BCs blown away by five DDs, 24 SDs devastated by 16 cruisers and another six BCs scared off by a trio of cruisers and handful of destroyers. Even at Monica, three BCs couldn't win.

Again, from HoS:

However, no matter how advanced they were, there is no question that the Bellerophon, like every other conventional capital ship in the Manticoran Navy, was designed to fight the last war. When even the most advanced prewar superdreadnought was rendered hopelessly obsolete by modern standards, the cost and manpower was clearly better spent on building larger, more powerful, and more survivable ships to replace them. The majority of this class lies in mothballs and could potentially be reactivated, but the possibility that any of them will see service again is remote.

The Scientists were designed to fight not the last war, nor the one before that, but the one two centuries ago. This one: http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Battle ... s_Crossing

WeirdlyWired wrote:1)Build replacement parts in facilities we do not have.

Battleships carry their own replacement parts and machine shops onboard, even if you had to scavenge some parts from 1/2 of them that still leaves nearly 200 to sell/give away. (not even counting the parts removed from the cripples and wrecks that aren't in serviceable condition)

WeirdlyWired wrote:4) then catch up on all the other neglected routine maintenance.

And what maintenance is it that they have been neglecting and why?

WeirdlyWired wrote:5) Load them with the Cadre from Sagamami Island who you need to train the officers and ABs you need to provide skeleton crews to get them wherever you want them; because you don't have enough personnel to build the physical equipment you need and Sag cadre is needed for that because RH is soon to be churning out hulls for you to
outfit and crew.
6) But you will need to train complete crews at their Final Destination from citizens that have never owned a hyper-capable ship, even a merchant one.
7) Develop a Navy complete with Doctrine from scratch.Oh except for the 3 300 yo obsolete LACs and a couple of pinnaces the bought from FF 100 years ago for customs inspections.

So your saying that Manticore is the only planet in human space with any Naval training or facilities? What makes you think that? the Andermani, Haven, Erewhon and even Silesian Confederacy all have active navies and Naval training centers, while some systems may be 'back-water' you cant tell me that all of the systems on the other side of the League are back-water DA who can't fly a starship, how did they get there? As to training, they can train themselves using the ships own manuals. NO, the Manties do not need crews to get them there, did Brittan form crews to get the Sultan Osman I or Reşadiye to Turkey, no the Turks sent their own crews to pick them up (and were rebuffed as WWI broke out but that's beside the point) ... "we just received a message from Manticore: 'SDs available for free, latest League tech, If you what one send somebody to come pick it up.'"

WeirdlyWired wrote:9) to fight Pirates that, certainly by now, Admiral Sarnow and the RAN have pretty much put pins in.

No - what part of stand against Frontier Fleet is too hard to grasp?

Castenea wrote:We have tried to beat this idea down
too many times, it just won't work.

Just because YOU say it wont?

Castenea wrote:A historical viginette:...

Yea and in 1898 the U.S. blasted the Spanish fleet into sunken derelicts at Manila bay - they were crap ships even for the time, so the U.S. scrapped them all as 'useless junk' ... oh wait, no they didn't they salvaged several of them and used them all the way past WWI. Just before this, the Japanese defeated the Chinese fleet at 1st Yellow sea ran there ships back to harbor and sunk them there with TBs before taking the harbor and scrapping all of their crappy ships, oh wait, no, there again they salvaged the ones they could and used them through WWI, even against the Russians at 2nd Yellow sea and Tsushima a decade later, but then the Russian ships they defeated were scrapped, oh no, yet again the crappy enemy ships sunk and captured were put back in service and served through WWI, some even being returned to Russia later. So if your going to use History as a pretext then History says 'back in service - somewhere'.

munroburton wrote:Largely irrelevant, I'm afraid. 3rd and 4th Yeltsins both happened long before the RMN's technological revolutions started running way ahead of everyone else...

No, this is completely irrelevant, what part of - 'I don't have to beat myself, I only have to beat my enemy' - do you not understand?

Look, If you were fighting the Carthaginian with Galleys equipped with torsion catapults and bronze rams do you need a Nuclear guided Missile cruiser with Harpoons? No! why would you? A 1865 Ironclad would do the job just as well, and a 1900 PD Battleship would run-amuck so why would you scrap the HMS Majestic just because the USS Belknap could sink her with harpoons, your not facing the Belknap your facing the Carthaginians, duh. If you can get the Greeks on your side to man the Majestic so much the better, they can figure out how to steer the thing on their own (and if not, no skin off your nose) "here's a slightly used SD, the most advanced in the SL Navy, with full stocks of supplies and a freighter full of salvage from one of her sisters use it in health".