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Duckk said take Mrs Clinton\not in jail here.

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Re: Duckk said take Mrs Clinton\not in jail here.
Post by biochem   » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:49 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:
There are two types of Labour Politician. The first wants to scrap private education now. The second wants to wait until their child graduates first.

Does America have an equivalent to either of these?
How about any other country?


Liberal Democrats (Obama, most Senators/Representatives) routinely send their kids to expensive private schools in Washington DC rather than subject them to the poor quality public school system located there. And yet they vote down vouchers etc so that the normal residents of Washington DC can do the same.
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Re: Duckk said take Mrs Clinton\not in jail here.
Post by Tenshinai   » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:55 am

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biochem wrote:
Liberal Democrats (Obama, most Senators/Representatives) routinely send their kids to expensive private schools in Washington DC rather than subject them to the poor quality public school system located there. And yet they vote down vouchers etc so that the normal residents of Washington DC can do the same.


Vouchers is a BAD system. Trust me when i say that it will NOT work the way intended.
Sweden have had a variation on the system for long enough that i can say that for certain by now.

Most of all it encourages shenanigans and PR instead of focus on good education.
Oh, and profiteering.

Here you might say it solved 1 problem for every 10 new ones it created.
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Re: Duckk said take Mrs Clinton\not in jail here.
Post by Daryl   » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:19 pm

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The undisputed top secondary school in our state is a state school. Houses in its catchment area cost $100k more than their equivalent elsewhere.
My grandkids go to a country state primary school, and both were recently assessed as Mensa eligible.
A good state system can work well.
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Re: Duckk said take Mrs Clinton\not in jail here.
Post by Tenshinai   » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:07 pm

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Daryl wrote:The undisputed top secondary school in our state is a state school. Houses in its catchment area cost $100k more than their equivalent elsewhere.
My grandkids go to a country state primary school, and both were recently assessed as Mensa eligible.
A good state system can work well.


Oh yes, no doubt about that, and the problems that came with vouchers here isn´t really even that private can´t be good either.

To start with, local government are required to provide education to all that do not go elsewhere, and get the vouchers for those.
However, what it means in reality is that they never know ahead how many students they will have, which also means they have no way of predicting how much cash they have to pay for it.
So while private schools can easily skim a profit, local government often whiplash between not enough money and not enough students.

Then also something that has previously been tentatively established, that kids actually benefit from a wider mix of ability for classes, it´s pretty much confirmed in the last decade here, smart parents send their kids to the "popular" schools, and what may be surprising is that putting all the bright students in one place, the middlings in another and the rest in a third place, it hurts the actual results of all 3 groups, with the smart kids being the ones dropping the most in results.

And that´s just two of the obvious problems that has come up, there´s much much more.
But it would be extremely difficult to reverse now, so it will hopefully get patched up and improved, maybe even within my lifetime. :|
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Re: Duckk said take Mrs Clinton\not in jail here.
Post by Imaginos1892   » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:00 pm

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One simple and obvious step would be to allow the parents to decide which school their children attend, rather than having that choice dictated to them by the school board.

That is, of course, Heresy and Treason. Even mentioning the idea brings the Teachers Union activists out with torches and pitchforks, howling for blood.

(Never mind that over half of the Teachers Union members are not actually Teachers)

Here in the People's Republic Of California the school boards establish school district boundaries by fiat, and enforce them rigidly. If you want your children to attend a different school, you have to sell your house and move. There are differences in the perceived value of otherwise equivalent houses based solely on what school district they happen to be in.
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If you want to learn, the worst schools and teachers in the world can't stop you. If you don't want to learn, the best can't help you.
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Last edited by Imaginos1892 on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Duckk said take Mrs Clinton\not in jail here.
Post by biochem   » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:59 pm

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Vouchers programs here have for the most part been restricted to the truly abysmal schools, the kind where kids are lucky to be able read when graduating high school and most drop out first. So these are by no means even close to being "good" state schools.

Charter schools especially the themed ones have a wider dispersal.
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Re: Duckk said take Mrs Clinton\not in jail here.
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:07 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:One simple and obvious step would be to allow the parents to decide which school their children attend, rather than having that choice dictated to them by the school board.


That IS how it works here already.

And it does NOT result in better schools than before. Quite the opposite.

And even before, it just took a bit of effort to switch schools if someone needed or specifically wanted it. I kinda doubt that your system is so completely monolithic and implacable that the same is completely impossible.
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Re: Duckk said take Mrs Clinton\not in jail here.
Post by dscott8   » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:14 pm

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Some folks are missing the underlying motive behind conservatives' support of vouchers. Their goal is to channel tax dollars into religious indoctrination. Religious organizations will use their tax-free revenues to supplement voucher funding, resulting in more $$$ per student than non-religious schools. These religious schools will be teaching "creation science" (in quotes because it's not science) and Dominionist theology. This is an end run around the First Amendment's Establishment clause, and the reason why Christian Dominionist zealot Betsy DeVos was chosen as Secretary of Education, and Jerry Falwell Jr. is Trump's "Education Adviser".

The next generation of young Americans will be split into two demographics. They will be products of either theocratic training camps or of an underfunded public school system left to wither and die.
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Re: Duckk said take Mrs Clinton\not in jail here.
Post by gcomeau   » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:50 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:One simple and obvious step would be to allow the parents to decide which school their children attend, rather than having that choice dictated to them by the school board.


You know when you have a complex issue that professionals in the field have been working on for generations and you come along and declare "the simple and obvious" solution which... for *some reason*... you can see but all those people who actually do this for a living can't?

You're usually wrong.
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Re: Duckk said take Mrs Clinton\not in jail here.
Post by Imaginos1892   » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:22 pm

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OR the 'experts' have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, preventing their failures from being exposed, and hanging on to their cushy positions and fat salaries.

What could it possibly hurt to allow parents to send their children to the least wretched of the government-run schools?
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