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US Presidential Candidates

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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:49 pm

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Well, let's hear the explanation for this one Trump apologists.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38787241


The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff AND the Director of National Intelligence just lost their regular seat at the table of the National Security Council in favor of the guy who published Brietbart News. The alt-right's (a.k.a. white supremacists) favorite propaganda source.


Please, tell us some more about how Trump is just using his preferred management style of "picking good people" and letting them take care of things and this is all fine. Or is the rose colored tint starting to flake away YET?



(Also, all those exasperated claims that Trump was only going after *illegal* immigrants? How's that claim holding up after the last few days huh?)
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:07 pm

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Eyal wrote:
PeterZ wrote:If any sorry fool could have beat her, why cheat to keep Bernie off the ticket?


Cheat how? I mean, the only thing I've seen which has any substance is Donna Brazile giving here a debate question before hand - except that the question was both an obvious one (regarding the Flint water crisis during a debate in Flint) and in any event wasn't asked as and by who Brazille claimed. I mean, the DNC was being accused of cheating due to actiosn carried out by state-level Republicans (e.g. primary voting in Arizona), FFS!



There was considerably more going on than some leaked debate question. Before beginning let's just have the reminder... according the Democratic party rules the DNC is supposed to be a *neutral* arbiter of the primary. Anything that breaks neutrality is violating that rule and is rigging the process.


First the DNC deliberately absolutely *gutted* the primary debate schedule to preserve Clinton's name recognition advantage in the early contests. Rigging the process.

Second, they launched coordinated media campaigns to convince Sanders voters that their vote wouldn't matter because Clinton had too commanding a delegate lead from day one... by counting Super Delegates. Which according to DNC rules are uncommitted to any candidate until the convention. Rigging the process.

Third, they launched "Victory Fund" fundraisers which were claimed to be raising money for down ticket candidates and thus not subject to donation limits on Clinton's campaign.... then took the VAST bulk of that money and redirected it into spending that directly materially aided Clinton's campaign in a manner which frankly stretched the bounds of campaign finance laws. Rigging the process.

Fourth, they then launched another media campaign sending people out to attack Sanders for NOT helping down ticket because he didn't participate in that scam. Rigging the process.




It was not just "oh they leaked some debate questions when it was all decided anyway". All of the above was why people on the left and even a lot of moderate independents were so pissed off at the Democratic establishment. Without the constant rigging interference it is very likely the entire momentum of the primary would have been different from day one and Sanders would have won, then crushed Trump in a head to head anti-establishment campaign only with Sanders campaign not being run by an ignorant narcissistic zenophobic bigot who liked to brag about getting away with being a sexual predator.



But no, Clinton got foisted on the electorate instead. Trump's one chance at winning. And then we ended up here.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Tenshinai   » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:27 am

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What Trumps ignorant incompetence and arrogance actually means:
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomac ... onflict-us
>>>“‘A war within the president’s term’ or ‘war breaking out tonight’ are not just slogans, they are becoming a practical reality,” it said.<<<
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Eyal   » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:27 am

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PeterZ wrote:Eyal,

Upon reflection you are correct the DNC staffers didn't materially aide Clinton vs. Sanders. They simply showed the poor grace of rooting for her in a manner that could be made public. She beat Sanders fair and square. She went on to lose to Trump fair and square.

I disagree that she articulated her policies well. Too often in debates she spent time attacking Trump as unfit, having poor judgement and regaling us on his with all the his statements she deemed damning. Addressing policy issues she referred the voters to her website. Of course, she may well have articulated her policies with sufficiently clarity. If true, this argues the past 8 years of Obama were being repudiated by most people in the US who didn't live in big cities.

No matter how you look at it, she did not read the electorate well. She read them so poorly, she accepted a strategy personal attack and spent a fortune on paid media. Stepped into his wheelhouse and turned the election into an insult contest where both candidates were hammered into tarnished personalities. That equalized each in the view of the average undecided/independent/largely non-political voter outside the big cities.


Oh, there were a lot of things she could have done better, don't get me wrong. But arguing the media was on her propaganda arms certainly doesn't fit how policy issues were given almost no play throughout the elections (and some other things)

gcomeau wrote:Second, they launched coordinated media campaigns to convince Sanders voters that their vote wouldn't matter because Clinton had too commanding a delegate lead from day one... by counting Super Delegates. Which according to DNC rules are uncommitted to any candidate until the convention. Rigging the process.


Skipping the debates question as I don't know enough about it.

The DNC asked media outlets not to mention the superdelegate count along with the delegate count, a request the media ignored. On the other hand, are you arguing that superdelegates should be forbidden from expressing their preference beforehand?

Third, they launched "Victory Fund" fundraisers which were claimed to be raising money for down ticket candidates and thus not subject to donation limits on Clinton's campaign.... then took the VAST bulk of that money and redirected it into spending that directly materially aided Clinton's campaign in a manner which frankly stretched the bounds of campaign finance laws. Rigging the process.


While I can't speak to the finance law issue, ISTR a similar joint fund being established for the Sanders campaign, but they didn't make use of it.

Fourth, they then launched another media campaign sending people out to attack Sanders for NOT helping down ticket because he didn't participate in that scam. Rigging the process.


There were actual down ticket runner who were aligned with Sanders and were complaining about his lack of support. Sanders did fairly little to support downticket races which is fairly important in the role he was seeking (as an aside - politically, it's arguably better for the Democrats that they lost the Presidential election, given that they failed to flip the Senate).


Without the constant rigging interference it is very likely the entire momentum of the primary would have been different from day one and Sanders would have won, then crushed Trump in a head to head anti-establishment campaign only with Sanders campaign not being run by an ignorant narcissistic zenophobic bigot who liked to brag about getting away with being a sexual predator.

But no, Clinton got foisted on the electorate instead. Trump's one chance at winning. And then we ended up here.


Sanders lost by 3 million voters. His supporters kept talking about his momentum but he was trailing for almost all of the primaries. That's not a close race by any means (and the delegate gap would have been even bigger if not for caucuses - which have no equivalent in the general).

Nor do I think that it's inevitable Sanders would have won. Just like Clinton was unpalatable to some of his supporters, he was unpalatable to some of hers. And by the time Trump's smear machine got through with him, he'd be painted as an anti-American, rape-supporting communist who dumped nuclear waste on poor Hispanics (among other things).
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:53 am

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Eyal wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Eyal,

Upon reflection you are correct the DNC staffers didn't materially aide Clinton vs. Sanders. They simply showed the poor grace of rooting for her in a manner that could be made public. She beat Sanders fair and square. She went on to lose to Trump fair and square.

I disagree that she articulated her policies well. Too often in debates she spent time attacking Trump as unfit, having poor judgement and regaling us on his with all the his statements she deemed damning. Addressing policy issues she referred the voters to her website. Of course, she may well have articulated her policies with sufficiently clarity. If true, this argues the past 8 years of Obama were being repudiated by most people in the US who didn't live in big cities.

No matter how you look at it, she did not read the electorate well. She read them so poorly, she accepted a strategy personal attack and spent a fortune on paid media. Stepped into his wheelhouse and turned the election into an insult contest where both candidates were hammered into tarnished personalities. That equalized each in the view of the average undecided/independent/largely non-political voter outside the big cities.


Oh, there were a lot of things she could have done better, don't get me wrong. But arguing the media was on her propaganda arms certainly doesn't fit how policy issues were given almost no play throughout the elections (and some other things)
The media didn't give policy any play because Clinton didn't hammer any policy issues home. She may have considered doing that a tactical mistake because too many who wouldn't vote for Trump would still disagree with her policies. I don't know. I do know that by not hammering home and spending many millions on attack adds, she legitimized the entire personal destruction strategy. She legitimized not the assault on any objectionable beliefs or policy issues, but of personal attacks designed to denigrate. She brought the entire campaign to a field where Trump avoided his greatest weakness; command of policy.

Mind you, I believe his lack of command was preferable to Clinton's belief in and command of bad policy. I also believe that the nature of the competitive field made voting odious to too many people in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. She didn't spend the time in those areas to mitigate that impression for her supporters....or possible supporters.

In this respect Trump was dead on; Hillary has atrocious judgement.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Imaginos1892   » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:12 pm

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As I have said before, I'm not happy that Trump won. I would be much more unhappy with Crooked Clinton.

Sanders and Clinton are like most leftists. They never believe that government is intrusive and controlling enough, and will blindly support any measure to make it even worse.

Every minute they didn't spend vilifying Trump, they spent harping on all the 'free stuff' they would give away. They are either too devious to admit that nothing is free, or too stupid to know it. I'm not sure which is worse.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:31 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:As I have said before, I'm not happy that Trump won. I would be much more unhappy with Crooked Clinton.


I can only shake my head at people who think of Clinton as crooked (which she is, in the way the bulk of politicians are) but then prefer Trump. The gold standard of all crookedness who makes Clinton look positively ruler straight in comparison.

Sanders and Clinton are like most leftists. They never believe that government is intrusive and controlling enough, and will blindly support any measure to make it even worse.

Every minute they didn't spend vilifying Trump, they spent harping on all the 'free stuff' they would give away. They are either too devious to admit that nothing is free, or too stupid to know it. I'm not sure which is worse.


Maybe what's worse is people too clueless to realize that when people mention free health care or education and the taxes required to pay for it in the same speech they are entirely aware, as is their audience, that "free" is referring to "free at point of service"... and it's other parties who are too damn stupid to be participating in that conversation?
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Imaginos1892   » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:05 pm

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They never mentioned paying for it all, except for some vague promises to 'tax the rich' into poverty. And when they make the rich poor, how are they supposed to pay for anything? But wait, it's all free!
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:25 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:They never mentioned paying for it all, except for some vague promises to 'tax the rich' into poverty. And when they make the rich poor, how are they supposed to pay for anything? But wait, it's all free!


https://berniesanders.com/issues/medicare-for-all/

"THE PLAN WOULD BE FULLY PAID FOR BY:

A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers.

Revenue raised: $630 billion per year.

A 2.2 percent income-based premium paid by households.
Revenue raised: $210 billion per year.This year, a family of four taking the standard deduction can have income up to $28,800 and not pay this tax under this plan.

A family of four making $50,000 a year taking the standard deduction would only pay $466 this year.


Progressive income tax rates.
Revenue raised: $110 billion a year.Under this plan the marginal income tax rate would be:
37 percent on income between $250,000 and $500,000.
43 percent on income between $500,000 and $2 million.
48 percent on income between $2 million and $10 million. (In 2013, only 113,000 households, the top 0.08 percent of taxpayers, had income between $2 million and $10 million.)
52 percent on income above $10 million. (In 2013, only 13,000 households, just 0.01 percent of taxpayers, had income exceeding $10 million.)

Taxing capital gains and dividends the same as income from work.
Revenue raised: $92 billion per year.Warren Buffett, the second wealthiest American in the country, has said that he pays a lower effective tax rate than his secretary. The reason is that he receives most of his income from capital gains and dividends, which are taxed at a much lower rate than income from work. This plan will end the special tax break for capital gains and dividends on household income above $250,000.

Limit tax deductions for rich.
Revenue raised: $15 billion per year. Under Bernie’s plan, households making over $250,000 would no longer be able to save more than 28 cents in taxes from every dollar in tax deductions. This limit would replace more complicated and less effective limits on tax breaks for the rich including the AMT, the personal exemption phase-out and the limit on itemized deductions.

The Responsible Estate Tax.
Revenue raised: $21 billion per year.This provision would tax the estates of the wealthiest 0.3 percent (three-tenths of 1 percent) of Americans who inherit over $3.5 million at progressive rates and close loopholes in the estate tax.

Savings from health tax expenditures.
Revenue raised: $310 billion per year. Several tax breaks that subsidize health care (health-related “tax expenditures”) would become obsolete and disappear under a single-payer health care system, saving $310 billion per year."



Yeah.... they *never* talk about paying for it except with vague handwaving.


Or. You have your head buried somewhere and just never bother to look because you know what you know already so there's no need.



(And none of the above "tax the rich into poverty")
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Imaginos1892   » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:09 pm

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When was the last time any of their tax schemes took in what they promised? They believe their tax increases do not have consequences to the people taxed, to the economy, or to our ruinous trade deficit.
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