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Any what if moments?

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Re: Any what if moments?
Post by Fox2!   » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:02 pm

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saber964 wrote:
Does anyone know the number of forums on this particular subject, namely what should we do with all the captured solly SD'S? Or how many times have we all beaten the shit out of this dead horse. I can think of at least eight or nine over the last couple of years.



And each of those fora have produced hundreds of postings. I would wager that there are tens of fora, with thousands of posts. In fact, there are probably 10,000 posts just on this one topic.

Which keeps getting beaten into the ground, only to rise again at the next sunset.
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Re: Any what if moments?
Post by Fox2!   » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:10 pm

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[quote="saber96]
No, NH life was forfeit for turning and firing early. Even if NH had dropped his weapon he was dead the instant he turned and fired. The token of surrender was if they had both fought the duel fairly. Basically the faced each other and they both exchanged fire NH could then dropped his weapon in surrender if he survived the exchange of fire.[/quote]

And it would not have kept certain circles in the Lords from complaining that she shot him after he had surrendered. Even Honor's first shot, allowed by the Dreyfus Protocol, was fatal. But this encounter was governed by the Ellington Protocol. Honor was entitled to fire until the slide locked back over an empty magazine.
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Re: Any what if moments?
Post by saber964   » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:34 pm

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Fox2! wrote:[quote="saber96]
No, NH life was forfeit for turning and firing early. Even if NH had dropped his weapon he was dead the instant by he turned and fired. The token of surrender was if they had both fought the duel fairly. Basically the faced each other and they both exchanged fire NH could then dropped his weapon in surrender if he survived the exchange of fire.[/quote]

And it would not have kept certain circles in the Lords from complaining that she shot him after he had surrendered. Even Honor's first shot, allowed by the Dreyfus Protocol, was fatal. But this encounter was governed by the Ellington Protocol. Honor was entitled to fire until the slide locked back over an empty magazine.[/quote]



No, I forget which one it is but the one HH fought against Summervail was fire until you drop.

IIRC the first type is both duelist have a fully loaded 10mm handgun with ten rounds in the magazine. Both fire until one on the ground and has the gun in hand.

The other protocol is the duelist each have a handgun with 5 rounds in the magazine, You stand 30m apart and fire one round at a time between each volley the master of the field ask each opponent if honor has been satisfied if not the opponents exchange fire again until either the gun is empty or first blood has been spilled, first blood wins if no one is hit the duel ends when all rounds have been expended.
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Re: Any what if moments?
Post by Fox2!   » Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:21 pm

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saber964 wrote:
Fox2! wrote:[quote="saber96]
No, NH life was forfeit for turning and firing early. Even if NH had dropped his weapon he was dead the instant by he turned and fired. The token of surrender was if they had both fought the duel fairly. Basically the faced each other and they both exchanged fire NH could then dropped his weapon in surrender if he survived the exchange of fire.[/quote]

And it would not have kept certain circles in the Lords from complaining that she shot him after he had surrendered. Even Honor's first shot, allowed by the Dreyfus Protocol, was fatal. But this encounter was governed by the Ellington Protocol. Honor was entitled to fire until the slide locked back over an empty magazine.[/quote][/quote]


No, I forget which one it is but the one HH fought against Summervail was fire until you drop.

IIRC the first type is both duelist have a fully loaded 10mm handgun with ten rounds in the magazine. Both fire until one on the ground and has the gun in hand.

The other protocol is the duelist each have a handgun with 5 rounds in the magazine, You stand 30m apart and fire one round at a time between each volley the master of the field ask each opponent if honor has been satisfied if not the opponents exchange fire again until either the gun is empty or first blood has been spilled, first blood wins if no one is hit the duel ends when all rounds have been expended.[/quote]


Ellington Protocol is 10 rounds, fire until empty or down. Dreyfuss Protocol is 5 rounds, fire until first blood, empty, or "Honour is satisfied."

Of course, Honor would not be satisfied until Summervale and North Hollow were both dead.
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Re: Any what if moments?
Post by SharkHunter   » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:16 am

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Actually, relative to Filerata's Folly, what I am really pointing at is "no way for the Mandarins to spin the defeat because Filerata is alive to testify".

Thoughts?
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Re: Any what if moments?
Post by WeirdlyWired   » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:41 am

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SharkHunter wrote:Actually, relative to Filerata's Folly, what I am really pointing at is "no way for the Mandarins to spin the defeat because Filerata is alive to testify".

Thoughts?


Not sure why Him being alive makes any difference, the other two that surrendered after the deaths of Bing and Crandall never stopped them spinning anything. Alternative truth seems to be their default position. The entire fake news industry is built to support and reinforce it. and the citizens of Old Earth are pretty clueless.

Send detailed tactical records from the Sollies' own computers and they'll get OpAn to spin them as slick forgeries.
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Re: Any what if moments?
Post by munroburton   » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:32 pm

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WeirdlyWired wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:Actually, relative to Filerata's Folly, what I am really pointing at is "no way for the Mandarins to spin the defeat because Filerata is alive to testify".

Thoughts?


Not sure why Him being alive makes any difference, the other two that surrendered after the deaths of Bing and Crandall never stopped them spinning anything. Alternative truth seems to be their default position. The entire fake news industry is built to support and reinforce it. and the citizens of Old Earth are pretty clueless.

Send detailed tactical records from the Sollies' own computers and they'll get OpAn to spin them as slick forgeries.


What detailed tactical records? Filareta was in the process of surrendering without a shot fired by either side. If Daniels had been prevented from entering the code, Eleventh Fleet would have been captured intact down to the last ship, spacer and venereal crab.

If Filareta surrendered alive, he can't avoid answering a lot of questions. The surviving successors to all of them have a degree of plausible deniability even if they knew something(which they don't) - they can keep their mouths shut and claim they weren't in on the Admiral's core staff meetings, nor privy to any secret orders or motivations.

For example, only Rajampet and Crandall could say for certain why she picked the McIntosh system for her training exercise. Same for Filareta and his early deployment to Tasmania which turned out to be convenient for an attack on Manticore. Tsang also had secret orders from Rajampet and was sequestered away from the Mandarins.
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Re: Any what if moments?
Post by Sigs   » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:26 pm

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WeirdlyWired wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:Actually, relative to Filerata's Folly, what I am really pointing at is "no way for the Mandarins to spin the defeat because Filerata is alive to testify".

Thoughts?


Not sure why Him being alive makes any difference, the other two that surrendered after the deaths of Bing and Crandall never stopped them spinning anything. Alternative truth seems to be their default position. The entire fake news industry is built to support and reinforce it. and the citizens of Old Earth are pretty clueless.

Send detailed tactical records from the Sollies' own computers and they'll get OpAn to spin them as slick forgeries.



Thing is, then you would have nearly 500 SD's captured by the GA without firing a shot. They can spin the defeat of 500 SD's anyway they want, they can make it seem like the GA got 11th Fleet to destroy the only weapon they were afraid of before annihilating them but when you have 21% of your active SD's surrender without firing a shot it would be harder to spin it anyway other than a complete admission of impotence.

And the citizens of Old Earth are somewhat irrelevant all in all, yes it is the capital but it is one system of a few hundred core and shell worlds. If everyone on Earth believes the mandarins 100% of the time but the rest of the League doesn't it makes no difference.
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Re: Any what if moments?
Post by Fox2!   » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:46 am

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WeirdlyWired wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:Actually, relative to Filerata's Folly, what I am really pointing at is "no way for the Mandarins to spin the defeat because Filerata is alive to testify".

Thoughts?


Not sure why Him being alive makes any difference, the other two that surrendered after the deaths of Bing and Crandall never stopped them spinning anything. Alternative truth seems to be their default position. The entire fake news industry is built to support and reinforce it. and the citizens of Old Earth are pretty clueless.

Send detailed tactical records from the Sollies' own computers and they'll get OpAn to spin them as slick forgeries.


Didn't the bomb in the Ops Officer's console destroy Filareta's Flag Bridge with no survivors?
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Re: Any what if moments?
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:56 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
saber964 wrote:
Does anyone know the number of forums on this particular subject, namely what should we do with all the captured solly SD'S? Or how many times have we all beaten the shit out of this dead horse. I can think of at least eight or nine over the last couple of years.



And each of those fora have produced hundreds of postings. I would wager that there are tens of fora, with thousands of posts. In fact, there are probably 10,000 posts just on this one topic.

Which keeps getting beaten into the ground, only to rise again at the next sunset.


Sadly, the same conversation in some form or another goes back past Filareta's Folly, all the way back to the Battle of Manticore, which was published in Nov, 2005, with the eARC released several months earlier. Back then, it was the captured RHN SD(p)'s, and why they couldn't be put in RMN use or gifted to Torch - or another 3rd party. Later the conversation changed to reflect Crandall's captured fleet at Spindle, followed by Filareta's survivors, all the while interjected with conversations of options for the captured ships and Monica, New Tuscany, and other places.

All told, a variant of this conversation has been going on for nearly 12 years. The conversation predates this forum, and at least 2 complete software changes (and data wipes) on Baen's Bar, and has been discussed on who knows how many other regional chats, message boards, and forums.

10,000 posts may be too low.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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