Any what if moments?

Fox2! wrote:IIRC, Lt. Castalano had a military grade pulser, not the semi-automatic pistol the parties to the duel used. He basically split North Hollow in half with a single burst from head to tail. Of course, Honor had already put three 9mm holes in the space his heart should have been.

10mm, not 9mm. 10mm is a significantly more powerful cartridge over and above the larger bore size.

Jonathan_S wrote:

pnakasone wrote:What would have been the repercussions if Rear Admiral Mark Sarnow had not been wounded during the First battle of Hancock and was in full command when Young panicked?

There would have been no question then that Young ran without orders. I'm not sure even his father's family's files could have saved his from execution in that case. If it's clear it then the opposition can't seize on it as part of their attempt to halt the war. So not sure what happens there.
Of course if Young dies there's likely nobody who'd care to get Paul killed.

But also Honor would be a minor witness in the trial; not the core of it. So with that and no dual no need to exile her to Grayson. Arguably that makes 4th Yeltsin (if it happens) more likely to go the Peep's way. And whether it happens depends on whether the opposition was still able to hamstring the early war again.

So that's my off the cuff thought. Lots of changes!

Actually thinking more on this it occurs to me that if Sarnow hasn't been injured and the flag bridge had remained functional, that Young probably wouldn't have run in the first place.

Honor initially kept silent - never giving the order to scatter - presumably to minimize the amount she encroached on the Flag's domain. But if Sarnow had still been in command he almost certainly would have issued affirmative revised orders to stick together until the pursuing DNs would be unable to escape Park's forces.

Pavel might have been willing to break away, per the contingency plan, without authorizing orders. But even his personal cowardliness seems unlikely to push him into running against recent and specific orders to the contrary.


So in that case no Court Martial at all. But then he's still in command of Warlock, so who knows what he'll screw up later in the war...

Jonathan_S wrote:

pnakasone wrote:What would have been the repercussions if Rear Admiral Mark Sarnow had not been wounded during the First battle of Hancock and was in full command when Young panicked?

There would have been no question then that Young ran without orders. I'm not sure even his father's family's files could have saved his from execution in that case. If it's clear it then the opposition can't seize on it as part of their attempt to halt the war. So not sure what happens there.
Of course if Young dies there's likely nobody who'd care to get Paul killed.

But also Honor would be a minor witness in the trial; not the core of it. So with that and no dual no need to exile her to Grayson. Arguably that makes 4th Yeltsin (if it happens) more likely to go the Peep's way. And whether it happens depends on whether the opposition was still able to hamstring the early war again.

So that's my off the cuff thought. Lots of changes!

RFC has patterned the RMN after the Age of Sail British Royal Navy. It's my understanding that a Flag Captain was in essence the Flag Officer's tactical deputy and was empowered to issue orders in the Flag Officer's name if that officer fell or was otherwise incapacitated until the next senior Flag officer or Captain could assume command.

It didn't happen often, usually the next senior could be notified by flag hoist signal or simply by hauling down the Admiral's Flag or Commodore's Broad Pendant unless gunsmoke or something else obscured visibility.

At Trafalgar, when Nelson fell most of the British fleet was unaware of the fact that Lord Collingwood had succeeded to command until most of the fighting was over and "the smoke had cleared."

At Hancock IMHO Honor was within her legal authority and rights to retain command until (IIRC) communications with the next senior officer under Sarnow could be clearly reestablished.

She was Sarnow's Flag Captain and Tactical Deputy. To argue otherwise would be nothing more than legalistic pettifoggery. Also IIRC none of the other Captains in the group, most of whom were senior to her, did other than support her in her decision.

robert132 wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:quote="pnakasone"]What would have been the repercussions if Rear Admiral Mark Sarnow had not been wounded during the First battle of Hancock and was in full command when Young panicked?

There would have been no question then that Young ran without orders. I'm not sure even his father's family's files could have saved his from execution in that case. If it's clear it then the opposition can't seize on it as part of their attempt to halt the war. So not sure what happens there.
Of course if Young dies there's likely nobody who'd care to get Paul killed.

But also Honor would be a minor witness in the trial; not the core of it. So with that and no dual no need to exile her to Grayson. Arguably that makes 4th Yeltsin (if it happens) more likely to go the Peep's way. And whether it happens depends on whether the opposition was still able to hamstring the early war again.

So that's my off the cuff thought. Lots of changes!

RFC has patterned the RMN after the Age of Sail British Royal Navy. It's my understanding that a Flag Captain was in essence the Flag Officer's tactical deputy and was empowered to issue orders in the Flag Officer's name if that officer fell or was otherwise incapacitated until the next senior Flag officer or Captain could assume command.

It didn't happen often, usually the next senior could be notified by flag hoist signal or simply by hauling down the Admiral's Flag or Commodore's Broad Pendant unless gunsmoke or something else obscured visibility.

At Trafalgar, when Nelson fell most of the British fleet was unaware of the fact that Lord Collingwood had succeeded to command until most of the fighting was over and "the smoke had cleared."

At Hancock IMHO Honor was within her legal authority and rights to retain command until (IIRC) communications with the next senior officer under Sarnow could be clearly reestablished.

She was Sarnow's Flag Captain and Tactical Deputy. To argue otherwise would be nothing more than legalistic pettifoggery. Also IIRC none of the other Captains in the group, most of whom were senior to her, did other than support her in her decision.[/quote]

Also Young had no way of knowing that Sarnow had been knocked out, as far as Young knew Honor had every right to issue the orders she did. My guess is even if Sarnow hadn't been knocked out Young would have still ran like a wet treecat. Also IIRC one cruiser HMS Merlin stayed in formation and when Honor issued orders to CruRon 17 to return to formation, Young's was the only one that didn't.

saber964 wrote:Also Young had no way of knowing that Sarnow had been knocked out, as far as Young knew Honor had every right to issue the orders she did. My guess is even if Sarnow hadn't been knocked out Young would have still ran like a wet treecat. Also IIRC one cruiser HMS Merlin stayed in formation and when Honor issued orders to CruRon 17 to return to formation, Young's was the only one that didn't.

Still we know Honor stayed silent, did not issue any orders or updates, after seeing the situation had changed and Park had a chance to mousetrap the Peeps if the cruiser force delayed their scatter.
That gave Pavel just enough to convince himself that since they'd reached the scatter point he could let himself flee even without the expected orders.

I have to imaging Sarnow would have broadcast his new orders to remain together to bait the trap. That makes it harder for Pavel to convince himself to flee.


Maybe he'd still have done so. But if so there'd be no possible excuse to be seized by his father's partisans / lackeys on the Court; not if he fled just after receiving specific orders direct from his Admiral to maintain formation.

robert132 wrote:She was Sarnow's Flag Captain and Tactical Deputy. To argue otherwise would be nothing more than legalistic pettifoggery. Also IIRC none of the other Captains in the group, most of whom were senior to her, did other than support her in her decision.

Young's defense was entirely based on legalistic pettifoggery. I believe even in universe the general consensus is that if his family was not as influential as it was he would have been shot.

pnakasone wrote:
Young's defense was entirely based on legalistic pettifoggery. I believe even in universe the general consensus is that if his family was not as influential as it was he would have been shot.

Yes he did not know Sarnow was dead, he did not know that the next Senior officer suffered communications failure. He did not know at the time that Honor was not legally issuing orders. That was the crux of the charges and the trial. He argued that he could not disobey an order given by a junior officer who was not in command.

Unless the RMN Articles of War are really bizarrely worded, disobeying orders wasn't the capital offense anyway. What he should have been shot for was withdrawing from the presence of the enemy while the group was under fire. The disobedience should only come into it if it's being used to demonstrate treason or cowardice. We're not actually told what the charges are, but if I were Parks, Disobeying a Lawful Command wouldn't have been one of them anyway.

WeirdlyWired wrote:

pnakasone wrote:
Young's defense was entirely based on legalistic pettifoggery. I believe even in universe the general consensus is that if his family was not as influential as it was he would have been shot.

Yes he did not know Sarnow was dead, he did not know that the next Senior officer suffered communications failure. He did not know at the time that Honor was not legally issuing orders. That was the crux of the charges and the trial. He argued that he could not disobey an order given by a junior officer who was not in command.

Actually, there wasn't a change of _orders_, there was a change in _plans_. The force had been advised that it was the Admiral's _intention_ to order the ships to scatter, not that they were ordered to scatter at a certain point. Since Sarnow knew that nobody would be buggering off without permission, there's no reason for him to have said anything either. He would take it for granted that anyone with a functioning brain could look at his tac plot and figure it out for himself. Only if he thought that for some reason his task group would fail to scatter and evade effectively if they didn't know ahead of time when they could expect it to happen would he have designated a new scatter point ahead of time - and there is no reason I know of that he should think that.

Where Sarnow would make a difference is in being able to relieve Young immediately and order his exec to take over and bring Warlock back into formation. I'm inclined to think that if Warlock fought the rest of the battle under somebody else, Pavel would be a dead man. They might not even have bothered to send him back to Manticore to be shot; there were more than enough Captains on hand who weren't party to the events to hold the court at Hancock, and that was pretty egregious. OTOH, if it was Sarnow himself giving the orders rather than a woman Young feared and hated, Young might have obeyed. Which wouldn't have saved his career, but might only have lead to him being dismissed his ship and beached.

Jonathan_S wrote:

saber964 wrote:Also Young had no way of knowing that Sarnow had been knocked out, as far as Young knew Honor had every right to issue the orders she did. My guess is even if Sarnow hadn't been knocked out Young would have still ran like a wet treecat. Also IIRC one cruiser HMS Merlin stayed in formation and when Honor issued orders to CruRon 17 to return to formation, Young's was the only one that didn't.

Still we know Honor stayed silent, did not issue any orders or updates, after seeing the situation had changed and Park had a chance to mousetrap the Peeps if the cruiser force delayed their scatter.
That gave Pavel just enough to convince himself that since they'd reached the scatter point he could let himself flee even without the expected orders.

I have to imaging Sarnow would have broadcast his new orders to remain together to bait the trap. That makes it harder for Pavel to convince himself to flee.


Maybe he'd still have done so. But if so there'd be no possible excuse to be seized by his father's partisans / lackeys on the Court; not if he fled just after receiving specific orders direct from his Admiral to maintain formation.

Louis R wrote:Actually, there wasn't a change of _orders_, there was a change in _plans_. The force had been advised that it was the Admiral's _intention_ to order the ships to scatter, not that they were ordered to scatter at a certain point. Since Sarnow knew that nobody would be buggering off without permission, there's no reason for him to have said anything either. He would take it for granted that anyone with a functioning brain could look at his tac plot and figure it out for himself. Only if he thought that for some reason his task group would fail to scatter and evade effectively if they didn't know ahead of time when they could expect it to happen would he have designated a new scatter point ahead of time - and there is no reason I know of that he should think that.

Actually he'd shared the intended scatter point - based on the assumption that past that point the cruisers couldn't achieve anything else worth the risk.

While you're right that they weren't supposed to scatter without orders, all the captains knew the intended scatter point.

As long as there was relatively free time to update them when the Admiral's intent changed it would still (to my mind) make sense for Sarnow to let them know that Park's reappearance had changed his previous intent and that the formation should continue to lure the enemy to the new scatter point.
Yes, that isn't strictly necessary as he'd plan to withhold the scatter order until that time - but it would be good to have everyone aware of the new intent in case he got incapacitated - or communications broke down after passing the original scatter point and before the new one.

But you're right, and I was wrong, that wouldn't be a new order - just an update letting them know the Admiral's intent had changed.