Particle beams

Well, we knew, that the main ordnance in Honorverse is x-ray lasers (either bomb-pumped or some sort of FEL-x-ray lasers), and we knew that plasma didn't work against sidewalls.

What about neutral particle beams?

Granted, the hydrogen or mercury atoms have more mass, and so they would be affected by sidewalls more, than near-massless photons. On the other hands, they have more mass - and their impact to the walls and armor would be MUCH greater. Especially armor; because they have much better penetration in any given matherial than just the laser beams.

Given that the Honorverse fusion reactors are insanely compact "plasma bottles", it seems that there isn't much problems with creating compact acceleration rings for proton/electron beams, with some sort of gravity-assisted intermixer to obtain the neutralization at the muzzle.

It is also possible, at least in theory, to create bomb-pumped pulse particle guns - as missile warheads.

Particle beams could be interesting solution... not so much as replacements to lasers, but as more-or-less similar conception, with both advantages and disadvantages.

I think that particle beams would be similar in effectiveness to energy torpedoes, high damage against a target not protected by sidewalls but rendered completely ineffective against sidewalls.

As sidewalls are ubiquitous and endwalls are becoming increasingly common I doubt that particle beams are going to be useful weapons against conventional ships. They might have a role in hunting Spider Drive ships but would have to be considerably more effective than conventional energy weapons to be worth the loss of flexibility

Sidewalls and wedges have been described as localized areas of incredible gravitational acceleration.

Thus, I suspect any attempt to get particles through would result in them being scattered. The individual particles are low mass so I dont see them resiting the effect of the sidewall very well at all.

I visualize it as tossing a pebble into an incredibly swift stream, which carries the pebble downstream away from the target.

ericth wrote:Sidewalls and wedges have been described as localized areas of incredible gravitational acceleration.

Thus, I suspect any attempt to get particles through would result in them being scattered. The individual particles are low mass so I dont see them resiting the effect of the sidewall very well at all.

I visualize it as tossing a pebble into an incredibly swift stream, which carries the pebble downstream away from the target.

Well, there are obvious upper limit, because the laser beams could penetrate the sidewalls. Granted, the photons are nearly massless, but still - the wall affected even the photons.

So, I think, the particle beam with enough energy would be able to penetrate without being critically defocused. And, even defocused particle beam could be potentially harming - because the particles are much more massive.

P.S. And if we use charged particles, we could make such interesting things like radiation kills through the armor... burning the electronic components inside the hull.

Grashtel wrote:
As sidewalls are ubiquitous and endwalls are becoming increasingly common I doubt that particle beams are going to be useful weapons against conventional ships. They might have a role in hunting Spider Drive ships but would have to be considerably more effective than conventional energy weapons to be worth the loss of flexibility

Well, if we assume that sidewalls would be indefinitely improved, we soon have the situation when even lasers could not penetrate them (and then the grav lances became the ONLY possible weaponry ) After all, we already knew, that photons ARE affected by the sidewalls. Question is - where are the limit? On which energy level it was placed?

Dilandu wrote:What about neutral particle beams?

Granted, the hydrogen or mercury atoms have more mass, and so they would be affected by sidewalls more, than near-massless photons.

The trade-off would be that Lasers/Grasers are light-speed weapons. Particle beams, because they have more mass, are necessarily sub-light-speed weapons. The more mass being accelerated, the greater the difference between Light-speed and sub-light-speed and the resulting chance for the target to move out of the way.

Weird Harold wrote:
The trade-off would be that Lasers/Grasers are light-speed weapons. Particle beams, because they have more mass, are necessarily sub-light-speed weapons. The more mass being accelerated, the greater the difference between Light-speed and sub-light-speed and the resulting chance for the target to move out of the way.

With all respect, 99,9% of lightspeed aren't as far away from 100% of lightspeed to make serious difference in tactical sence.

Weird Harold wrote:

Dilandu wrote:What about neutral particle beams?

Granted, the hydrogen or mercury atoms have more mass, and so they would be affected by sidewalls more, than near-massless photons.

The trade-off would be that Lasers/Grasers are light-speed weapons. Particle beams, because they have more mass, are necessarily sub-light-speed weapons. The more mass being accelerated, the greater the difference between Light-speed and sub-light-speed and the resulting chance for the target to move out of the way.

I think the bigger trade-off is that particle beams don't seem practical as a missile warhead and actual energy range combat is practically non-existent in modern Honorverse warfare.

Even super stealthy MAlign spider ships probably don't want to close to that range -- the initial salvo would be devastating but if it wasn't 100% effective at incapacitating the target they'd be exposed and vulnerable to devastating counter fire. Safer to drop some pods and a stealthy fire control relay and slip well wide before smashing missiles down some poor victim's throat. That way any counter-fire is wasted; fired in the wrong direction.

Also with respect, 99.9% of light speed brings in massive tau effects. The particles would become much heavier, and harder to accellerate before that. Basically MC2=E.

Dilandu wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
The trade-off would be that Lasers/Grasers are light-speed weapons. Particle beams, because they have more mass, are necessarily sub-light-speed weapons. The more mass being accelerated, the greater the difference between Light-speed and sub-light-speed and the resulting chance for the target to move out of the way.

With all respect, 99,9% of lightspeed aren't as far away from 100% of lightspeed to make serious difference in tactical sence.

Daryl wrote:Also with respect, 99.9% of light speed brings in massive tau effects. The particles would become much heavier, and harder to accellerate before that. Basically MC2=E.

And - harder to deviate from course, also. I.e. the defocusing effect of sidewalls would be greatly lessened.