"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

Several points:

1) Haven is supplying hulls, or is about to, for fitting out at Beowulf.

2) Any refitting of ships, either Manty mothball fleet or SLN SDs would be using the same [virtually] non-existent repair slips and repair crews.

3) higher the mass, the slower the ship. So using SLN SDs to protect against SLN CAs or BBs is going to put them in a velocity/acceleration penalty. EDIT: At some point enough barely capable captains can manage to maneuver an SD into an up-the-kilt shot for one of them.

4) By the end of SoV at least most of the Quadrant systems have modern LACs posted. Each LAC is as much defense as a DD with way more speed and maneuverability,smaller crews that are homegrown and they can be used as training platforms for the RMN without the train-the trainer- to train the crew and retrain the crew when they get to main line RMN ships. Which was the original game plan anyway.

5) I don't remember any textev on hull construction and repair in The Quadrant, although intellectually there must be at least repair an maintenance capability.

6) Do you need to use recon drones, or can you just use Hermes Buoys for 2 way FTL communication?

WeirdlyWired wrote:6) Do you need to use recon drones, or can you just use Hermes Buoys for 2 way FTL communication?

Either will work for ship to ship communications. Neither will work for managing more than two or three communications channels as would be needed for monitoring a constellation of recon drones or a fleet of warships without integral FTL Communications.

ISTR, that any ship with grav sensors can receive FTL transmissions with a software tweak or two but it requires major changes to the impeller rooms to enable sending FTL communications beyond very slow "Morse code."

Theemile wrote:
We don't know the proper status of the mothball feet. At the least, they will require several months of replenishment and training/light repairs. If they had components removed, more time would be necessary. Fortunately, the status of all the mothballed ships is well known and documented, and fleet members are trained on the hardware and software on the ships.

True if we are speaking of the RMN and GSN Reserve Fleets. I wouldn't trust the reported condition of a moth-balled SLN vessel. Heck, I wouldn't even trust the existence of a mothballed SLN vessel until I've not just seen her myself, but checked the commissioning plaque in the wardroom and tickled her computers until they spit out a name, hull number and commissioning date (and her builder's works number and keel laying date).

Theemile wrote: The hardest part was devising a standard doctrine and training to it.

They skipped that part. They don't have a single force they have ~16 different forces with their own doctrine and languages. Think of the UN in Mogadishu circa 1993. How did that end, anyhow?

Fox2! wrote:

Theemile wrote:
We don't know the proper status of the mothball feet. At the least, they will require several months of replenishment and training/light repairs. If they had components removed, more time would be necessary. Fortunately, the status of all the mothballed ships is well known and documented, and fleet members are trained on the hardware and software on the ships.

True if we are speaking of the RMN and GSN Reserve Fleets. I wouldn't trust the reported condition of a moth-balled SLN vessel. Heck, I wouldn't even trust the existence of a mothballed SLN vessel until I've not just seen her myself, but checked the commissioning plaque in the wardroom and tickled her computers until they spit out a name, hull number and commissioning date (and her builder's works number and keel laying date).

I was in fact speaking about the RMN/GSN mothball fleets specifically.

As you say, even the SLN probably doesn't have good knowledge of the status of it's own mothball fleet.

Joat42 wrote:This topic has been discussed to death.

Using the SD's is problematic because of a host of problems.

1. They require are very large crew to function - there is no surplus of trained spacers after the attack.
2. They are obsolete. Period.
3. Some re-training is needed for the crew.
4. Very high maintenance.
5. Where do you source spare-parts? From other SD's you say? Who is going to do it? Manticore lost most of their trained spacers in the attack.
6. Where do you resupply missiles? Or are you suggesting retrofitting them with Manticore launchers? See - no trained spacers to spare.

And on and on and on...

You really should search the forum for the extremely long threads dealing the SD's. This dead horse has been flogged so much there is nothing left to flog...

****** *

"Uncle, it is okay to beat a dead horse if the cart is still moving." —My niece, Tierney Jenkins

I'm afraid you can beat this horse 'til it is dead but the cart will always be moving. I think it is one of those therapeutic threads. As purebred conscientious humans, it rubs us the wrong way to be wasteful. Greater waste is offensive.

SLN SD's being wasted by the job lots is offensive. Especially when there are planets in the Verge that would die to somehow own and operate just one. Would go a long way to solve their piracy problem.

Of course all of the reasons why it isn't feasible makes sense on paper, but it will never sit right in our hearts. It just seems so wrong.

Little wonder if discussing it occasionally is a bit therapeutic, sort of an emotional placebo effect of guilt release.

cthia wrote:Of course all of the reasons why it isn't feasible makes sense on paper, but it will never sit right in our hearts. It just seems so wrong.

Just recognize that you're following the sunk cost fallacy playbook and move on.

The E wrote:

cthia wrote:Of course all of the reasons why it isn't feasible makes sense on paper, but it will never sit right in our hearts. It just seems so wrong.

Just recognize that you're following the sunk cost fallacy playbook and move on.

Easier said than done. The problem with your suggestion is this... what you are asking is no different than separating church from state—if you can follow that. And we know how difficult that is.

Theemile wrote:

saber964 wrote:Whose to say that Hercules wasn't given some weapons upgrades like ERDM or the equivalent of a Mk 16 Mod G warhead upgrade for her Mk 13 capital missiles. Also for Hercules you could add better long range targeting.

actually, that brings another group of points in favor for the Hercules, all of which are operational factors.

From A Rising Thunder, we learned that a Scientist only has ~50 broadside control links, about a %50 redundancy. A RMN SD usually has a 100-200% percent as built, and many were later upgraded to have more firecontrol in the pod era. so they would have at least 100 broadside control links. While this doesn't really effect the numbers of missiles the Hercules can throw in a battle, as damage builds up, the Hercules can continue to throw large salvos, where the control arrays on a Scientist/Vega are more likely to limit salvo size as damage is taken.

You will also see other, deeper redundancies in RMN craft over SLN ships, As the RMN saw ships being lost, it learned from the experience and increased redundencies and damage resilience.

Maintenance is another consideration in this. We saw at Spindle that the maintenance levels of the SLN ships were far less than RMN standards. So the chances that critical equipment is not working, or fails under pressure during battle, is much higher on an SLN ship.

On the other hand, Jayne's had the pre-war ships with no real redundancy in fire control links either, although they did mount dual-purpose links for more flexibility.

I've said before that I think the Scientist and Vega class are too 'missile heavy', really too 'modern' in general, for the philosophy of the SLN to date.

The point about maintenance is a good one as well. The SLN ships would really need a good refit to make sure everything worked as it should - so they aren't ready for immediate deployment.

WLBjork wrote:On the other hand, Jayne's had the pre-war ships with no real redundancy in fire control links either, although they did mount dual-purpose links for more flexibility.

I've said before that I think the Scientist and Vega class are too 'missile heavy', really too 'modern' in general, for the philosophy of the SLN to date.

The point about maintenance is a good one as well. The SLN ships would really need a good refit to make sure everything worked as it should - so they aren't ready for immediate deployment.

Yes, these Solly SDs do appear to be quite overgunned, relative to SD and DNs of comparable masses from Manticore or Haven. That applies to lasers and grasers, not just missile launchers.

One possible explanation is that the Sollies' lasers and grasers are individually smaller - if they're still using battleship scale energy weapons, for example.