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"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Mikeo   » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:04 pm

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Moving back to the Vega and Scientist classes, Could the ECM and ECCM suites be upgraded by the facilities available somewhere like, say, Rembrandt?
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:12 pm

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Mikeo wrote:Moving back to the Vega and Scientist classes, Could the ECM and ECCM suites be upgraded by the facilities available somewhere like, say, Rembrandt?


Rembrandt's existing infrastructure and technology is not up to manufacturing modern ECCM systems. Manticore, of course does not have the ability to manufacture new hardware at this time. If old, complete hardware sets exist from a refresh of an RMN ship, Rembrant probably could do it, but they may have issues modifying extremely high tech parts.

But, as always, the question is "why bother"?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Mikeo   » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:26 pm

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Crap. I hadn't thought about FTL com. That would require a shipyard refit, wouldn't it?

I was thinking along the lines of utilizing them more or less as is for rear area security in places like the Talbot quadrant. Similar to the way that Haven was using its old battleships in the first war.
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:47 pm

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Mikeo wrote:Crap. I hadn't thought about FTL com. That would require a shipyard refit, wouldn't it?

I was thinking along the lines of utilizing them more or less as is for rear area security in places like the Talbot quadrant. Similar to the way that Haven was using its old battleships in the first war.


It's been mentioned a few times. This entire thread (and about 30 others) describe why using them would be subpar. There are still ~150-250 RMN/GSN wallers in mothballs that have 1915 upgrades or better. Why not use them first? They only require 3500-4500 crew each compared to 6500 in a scientist. Each of those SDs and DNs are bigger and more modern than a Scientist and would probably eat 2-3 of them for lunch.

Any one of the roughly 300 RMN/GSN Sag-Cs have more capability than a Scientist on 5% of the manpower. Also the ~125 BC(p)s, >25 Nikes, ~150 CLACs, ~400 SD(p)s, and ~350 SD/DNs in the RMN/GSN can do the same missions, cheaper and better. Another 108, 100 year old ships which require 15-20 months of yard time to be effective in the fleet aren't really needed.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:21 pm

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Theemile wrote:
saber964 wrote:Another point Jonathan covered lightly is the FTL comm and Ghost Rider drones. A single RMN ship can deploy enough drones to give full sensor coverage of the region around a planet and the hyperlimit. The FTL comm allows near realtime knowledge of what is happening, and lifts the fog of war. The chances of an RMN craft maneuvering into an optimum position at the start of the battle is many times higher than an SLN ship surprising the RMN ship or out maneuvering it.

Though I will note its quite likely that Hercules did not get the drive node upgrades it would take to be able to transmit FTL. But any ship with the correct software (and encryption keys) can use their existing grav sensors to read FTL transmissions - so she can still read the real-time feed from the Ghost Rider drones.

(Or she needs to send FTL to other ships / bases you can always repeat the trick Prince Adrian planned to do in IEH and tractor a recon drone and use it as your FTL transmitter)

But that lack of drive node upgrade is also why I'd assume she's incapable of throwing up any kind of bow or stern wall. (I think she'd have gotten a better compensator - but not new impeller nodes. Less refit work and most of the accel advantage; which is all you really need in such an old ship)

Mikeo wrote:Moving back to the Vega and Scientist classes, Could the ECM and ECCM suites be upgraded by the facilities available somewhere like, say, Rembrandt?
Depends on what you want to do. Halo is described as being pretty decent hardware, matched up to pitiful software. You shouldn't need any kind of yard for a skilled RMN or RHN programmer to port over their ECM ECCM routines as a basis for far superior software -- if for some reason they wanted to upgrade the captured units.
Similarly if the SLN gets a clue and comes up with better software I'd think any dispatch boat could bring the new install out to the fleet and they could do a software update without any additional fleet train or yard support.
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Mikeo   » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:58 pm

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I was also curious to see how they compared to the Hercules, which Manticore still has in service. Honestly, it was while rereading Shadow of Sangami, where they speak about Hercules (I'm not sure of the exact quotes, but they basically say, she might be old, but a ship of the wall is still a ship of the wall) and a quote from House of Steel,'any waller is better than no waller'
Also, Sir Horace, saying that there is nothing wrong with solly tech, the problem is how they use it.
So then, I look at the GA after the Yarwatta strike: All of the shipyards in Manticore and Grayson are gone. There will not be any new ships built for a long time. The GA is now at war with the Solarian league. And it is still in the process of securing silesia and talbot.
The good guys just captured 100+ SLN SDs. As warships, they would be too old, slow, and underarmed to be used in any type of fleet action. But they are ships that are in service, not mothballed. They would be more than a match for anything likely to be causing trouble in the smaller systems. (Like pirates, uppity warlords, etc...) They would be huge manpower sinks, but sangami island is still turning out cadets. The talboters just produced a 1.5million man army in what a month or two? The fleet trains from crandal and possibly flierta's fleets should have everything needed to keep a modest number of these ships in service until ship production resumes.

Anyway, that was why I was thinking that they would be worth the effort.
I was thinking that in a system defense role, armed with relatively small numbers of havenite MDM pods (50 MDM salvos would ruin the day of anyone outside of the GA) and backed up with reduced numbers of LACs, they could free up modern ships for fleet work. Without tying up building slips.

But I didn't think about the FTL comm issue. I'm pretty sure that would be a shipyard level refit, which makes the whole thing worthless.

Oh well, still a better useof my time than lurking on facebook would have been.
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Mikeo   » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:01 pm

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Wouldn't mothballed wallers need shipyard time to be brought back into service? That was why i was thinking of the SLN clunkers.
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Mikeo   » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:05 pm

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I guess it depends on how much effort it takes to bring a starship out of mothballs.
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:26 pm

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Mikeo wrote:Wouldn't mothballed wallers need shipyard time to be brought back into service? That was why i was thinking of the SLN clunkers.



No new arms were produced for the Talbot army, pretty much they took their existing armies and merged them. They all used old SLN hardware, allowing a quick set of standards force. So overnight, they were able to field a potent force numerically. Though it didn't have the best high tech goodies other armies would have, it would be good in a garrison role, and be more potent with the navy to back it. The hardest part was devising a standard doctrine and training to it.

We don't know the proper status of the mothball feet. At the least, they will require several months of replenishment and training/light repairs. If they had components removed, more time would be necessary. Fortunately, the status of all the mothballed ships is well known and documented, and fleet members are trained on the hardware and software on the ships.

However, all the SLN SDs are an unknown. All ships would need to be surveyed, and repaired to a standard condition before they could be used, or else any ship could be assumed to be sailing off with a dangerous reactor and damaged control systems. The ship's software would need to be augmented or replaced so the ships could interface with the rest of the fleet, and the crews trained on the non-standard hardware and software. Even a former SLN ship with no issues, would probably not be available for use for ~12 months, and that's if you are able to find resources capable of doing the survey and repair in a short amount of time.

However, the RMN is not even using their mothballed tube SDs, and has been putting active tube wallers back in storage. So if they are not using the superior options, why would they use the inferior option?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by munroburton   » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:46 pm

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FTL comm is easy. Simply provide the hulks with ghost rider drones acting as relays, the same way Honor spoke to Filareta and Truman to Tsang.

However, that does not help with the rest of their combat deficiencies. We're talking WW1 stuff captured trying to attack a post-cold war USN. You can put a satellite phone aboard such vessels, but they still won't get near a carrier battlegroup.
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