Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

Weird Harold wrote:

WeirdlyWired wrote:Sorry, just too lazy to try to find the book and page. but aren't the MAN stealth systems able to disguise all but a bit of the waste heat signature, which it is able to vent way from sensors. which would be defeated if it passed between two enemy ships? That sounds at least marginally better than Manty stealth.

That quote is a few posts back in this thread.

MAlign stealth is undoubtedly different than RMN stealth. That is NOT the same thing as better than RMN Stealth.

The "bit of waste heat" you remember is a veritable beacon of IR energy in one aspect. Waste Heat is not a big problem for anyone else, because it gets dumped into the Wedge. RMN (and virtually every other Navy) doesn't have to worry about being surrounded and unable to find a "safe" vector for that waste heat.

The difference reminds me of the old Jack London story, The Shadow and the Flash. The MAlign has gone for Transparency and everyone else has gone for Absolute Black. Both have betraying features.

At present, MAlign stealth is invisible even to active sensors. That's a significant difference.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Invariably, a somewhat large portion of the introspection that I wanted to impart in this thread is that the Alignment has the technology to effect an Eridani strike with impressive ease and execution on an unprecedented and unimaginable scale. Well, I can imagine it.

If Manticore's own stealth technology enabled them to park probes close enough to the observation decks to view what was being served in the galleys, then certainly the Alignment's tech is at least a cut above. How close can the MA park a few Lenny Dets to the planet at optimum distance and vector to disable power stations, grids and other key military targets on the planet that will serve to cripple it in lieu of killing it? Communications planet-wide destroyed, moments before a supporting attack. And certainly, Mount Royal could be considered a military target.

It almost seems criminal for the Alignment not to usher in a new age of EEV. The technology and capability is in their hands as with no other navy. Because they have such unrivaled supporting technology, means that they could execute an EEV strike HUMANELY. They could rewrite the galaxy's perception of the concept.

"Because we can get in so closely—for all intents and purposes— to your planet unseen and lay doggo with our EEV strike computers running at maximum capacity, we can pinpoint your critical planetary arteries and sever them with ease. Our computers, meticulously and without error, calculate the reaction times of your ships in the vicinity of each launch. Resistance is futile."

When the galaxy hears the news, they'd be appalled, then stunned that all of their friends and loved ones are still alive. This was a humane strike, the act of a humane adversary. But then...

Um, as long as the MALign asked the planet to surrender first none of the bombardment you're talking about appears to be a violation of the Eridani Edict. So it's not a "humane EEV strike"; because it's not a EE violation at all.

If your fleet is in the planet's orbitals and can't be driven off (in this case because they're essentially invisible) the planet is supposed to surrender. If they don't your fleet is allowed to bombard and and all military targets until they do. [David elaborated on this over 10 years ago here
That includes:
* Military units
* Weapons emplacements
* Power plants supporting weapons or bases
* Communicaion facilities used to coordinate / control military or weaons
* Government facilities / personnel that provide civilian control of the military
And there's no "human shields" allowed by the Edict - if you plant your government, military headquarters, or missile defense battery in the middle of a major city then it's your fault it gets bombarded (causing civilian megadeaths) because you wouldn't surrender when your enemy took the orbitals.

I don't see the MA taking an unnecessary chance with Manty tech or resolve. I cannot see them asking for anything. Certainly not before providing an example of their tech. Seeing is believing. Discharging a startling .45 in a crowded room does significantly more than just telling someone you've got a gun. One provides a more lasting impression.

One proponent of the US's attack on the cities of Japan was to reveal the capability to the world. The proverbial "putting their capability where their mouth is."

Besides, the MAlign are planning to rewrite the galaxy's perception of an EEV. You can't rewrite unless you rewrite.

And I'm not so certain that being invisible is reminiscent of controlling the orbitals.

n7axw wrote:Interesting thread. But I'm struggling with it. Cthia, your premise is too neat and all inclusive. In real life all families have black sheep who would steer clear of the reunion. Or, put another way, real life is messy. The implausibility level is too high. To be sure what you describe is possible on the level of a mathematical probability scale, but really, is it gonna happen?

Secondly, is this really the Honorverse we are discussing? Obviously enough we are within the Honorverse setting with Honorverse geography and characters. But it's not the Honorverse story. RFC doesn't write this way. I am comparatively new to the forums, but I have been reading David going all the way back to OBS.

I think what we are dealing with is a plot line that needs its own universe with its own context.

Don

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I understand, you're strengthening my niece's "I told you so." LOL

Are you factoring in the detail about Anisimova being granted the full capability of MAlign tech and taking her gloves off?

Remember, the child proof cap has been removed from the equation and the nanite weaponry is made available to Anisimovna in full strength and she is using it with unfettered reckless abandon to subtly herd baby Manticoran IQ. Which would be shockingly easy across vast distances of the galaxy where correspondence takes weeks.

The black sheep of the family wanted to honor their same old stale New Year's resolution blindly made year after year. And Michelle's marriage to an Andermani was exciting even to them and served as a perfect occasion to do just that. She is a likeable member of the line of succession. Even those stodgy old fellows wanted to attend—merely a common manifestation of the human element—especially under the shockingly helpful hand of Anisimovna and her puppet nannies.

However, this plot line is a reality. That is why governments have a "designated survivor protocol" in the first place. Even the treecats saw the need of a designated survivor protocol.

New and emerging technologies can invalidate your current "protocols."

cthia wrote:At present, MAlign stealth is invisible even to active sensors. That's a significant difference.

No, wrong. You're basing this on exactly one scene in the books, and that is not enough data to make such a grand pronouncement.

The E wrote:

cthia wrote:At present, MAlign stealth is invisible even to active sensors. That's a significant difference.

No, wrong. You're basing this on exactly one scene in the books, and that is not enough data to make such a grand pronouncement.

Granted. Though one scene, some bit o proof, is not the same as an absence of proof. I bet centuries on the thought being kosher.

You are proposing that the MAlign are innocent of having tech immune to active sensors until proven guilty. I think they're guilty as charged. That was a significant scene.

cthia wrote:Granted. Though one scene, some bit o proof, is not the same as an absence of proof. I bet centuries on the thought being kosher.

You are proposing that the MAlign are innocent of having tech immune to active sensors until proven guilty. I think they're guilty as charged. That was a significant scene.

First, I have to apologize, there are actually two scenes. Mission of Honor Chapter 11 and Storm from the Shadows Chapter 51 both have MA ships coming close to RMN and Grayson ships respectively.

To quote from SFTS:

Their analysts' best estimate was that their stealth systems were equal to those of Manticore at a minimum, and probably at least marginally superior, although no one was prepared to assume anything of the sort.

I don't know about you, but I think I agree with the Alignment's shipbuilders here.

Mission of Honor, Chapter 11 only shows that the MA have refined the stealth features already used by everyone else to a higher degree. They have nothing that alters the basic rules of the stealth game (i.e. nothing to eliminate the need to radiate as much as possible away from enemy sensors).

What I'm trying to get at is that there are no indications in the books that MA ships are significantly more stealthy than RMN ships would be in similar circumstances (meaning situations where they're going to full EMCON with their main drives and active sensors shut down). We know that they can evade detection at about 2 light minutes against a CA squadron that isn't looking for them and evade detection against a DD division that is at over 7 light minutes, but we also know that the RMN routinely parks drones that noone can find within a few thousand kilometers of their targets (drones, I would add, that require an active wedge in order to work, i.e. something that the primary sensors of their targets are actively looking for all the time).

The main advantage spider drive vessels have is that they can accelerate faster under stealth than anyone else, but that does not exempt them from the basic realities of honorverse stealth. They cannot, for example, be parked near a heavily trafficed planet for any length of time before someone gets in the path of their stealth system's exhaust plume (especially if said system knows they're there and is actively looking for them with remote sensor platforms).

cthia wrote:I thought the missions were completed by dropping virtually undetectable probes into the system then coming back later to get a report. The same tactic the RMN always used. I'll have to have a reread since you are implying that I am mistaken, and I doubt that you're leading me astray.


Be careful what you ask for.

And I did ask to be corrected if I was wrong.

I do recall Manty ships avoiding detection in storyline. But I thought it was just as much a factor of distance, luck, inferior Havenite hardware and a non-Foraker-like entity at tactical. I don't equate being out of range with being invisible.

A question that jumps to my front burner now...

How good is the MAlign's detection of Manty wedges?

I'm looking at it right now in AAC.

"As you know, we planned and executed a feint attack on the Suarez system three weeks ago. We sent in scouting destroyers, then, after a couple of days, sent in Admiral Truman's carrier squadron, escorted by a single squadron of battlecruisers and one of heavy cruisers."

They did use their unmanned platforms extensively. But they have to keep someone nearby to operate the platforms by remote.

And from Chapter 57,

"What's the latest on our visitors?" Admiral Alessandra Giovanni asked.
"Pretty much unchanged, Ma'am." Commander Ewan MacNaughton replied. "Their starships are still stooging around outside the hyper limit, but their platforms are dancing all over the damned place... and making sure we know it."

As for MAlign's ability to detect stealthed RMN ships - I may be wrong, but I think during Oyster Bay's recon phase, they had a close call or two thanks to enemy training maneuvers they couldn't keep track of. It's hard to find textev for this, because the OB operation takes place over the course of several books.

So far, when both are operating under full stealth, we know the spider ship is more likely to detect the impeller ship first. But not with enough separation to avoid a potentially unfavourable tactical situation.

munroburton wrote:As for MAlign's ability to detect stealthed RMN ships - I may be wrong, but I think during Oyster Bay's recon phase, they had a close call or two thanks to enemy training maneuvers they couldn't keep track of. It's hard to find textev for this, because the OB operation takes place over the course of several books.

It's two chapters. SftS Chapter 51 and MoH Chapter 11. In both cases, neither the RMN nor the GSN make any real attempt at being stealthy (the RMN can't because those DDs were sent out to investigate the MA's emergence from hyperspace, the GSN didn't have any reason to as they were travelling to and from a maneuver area).

We know exactly nothing about the MA's abilities when it comes to finding ships that are actively trying to hide.

munroburton wrote:I'm looking at it right now in AAC.

"As you know, we planned and executed a feint attack on the Suarez system three weeks ago. We sent in scouting destroyers, then, after a couple of days, sent in Admiral Truman's carrier squadron, escorted by a single squadron of battlecruisers and one of heavy cruisers."

They did use their unmanned platforms extensively. But they have to keep someone nearby to operate the platforms by remote.

And from Chapter 57,

"What's the latest on our visitors?" Admiral Alessandra Giovanni asked.
"Pretty much unchanged, Ma'am." Commander Ewan MacNaughton replied. "Their starships are still stooging around outside the hyper limit, but their platforms are dancing all over the damned place... and making sure we know it."

It should be noted that these two quotes tell us nothing about what the RMN's stealth is capable of, nor how good the RHN's ability to detect them is. In both cases the entire purpose of the mission is destroyed if the scouting destroyers and remote platforms remain undetected. The purpose of the multiple scouting missions is to disguise where an actual attack will come and force the RHN to disperse their resources to protect multiple targets. Using the full RMN stealth capabilities to remain undetected defeats the purpose of keeping the RHN guessing.

munroburton wrote:I'm looking at it right now in AAC.

"As you know, we planned and executed a feint attack on the Suarez system three weeks ago. We sent in scouting destroyers, then, after a couple of days, sent in Admiral Truman's carrier squadron, escorted by a single squadron of battlecruisers and one of heavy cruisers."

They did use their unmanned platforms extensively. But they have to keep someone nearby to operate the platforms by remote.

And from Chapter 57,

"What's the latest on our visitors?" Admiral Alessandra Giovanni asked.
"Pretty much unchanged, Ma'am." Commander Ewan MacNaughton replied. "Their starships are still stooging around outside the hyper limit, but their platforms are dancing all over the damned place... and making sure we know it."

Weird Harold wrote:It should be noted that these two quotes tell us nothing about what the RMN's stealth is capable of, nor how good the RHN's ability to detect them is. In both cases the entire purpose of the mission is destroyed if the scouting destroyers and remote platforms remain undetected. The purpose of the multiple scouting missions is to disguise where an actual attack will come and force the RHN to disperse their resources to protect multiple targets. Using the full RMN stealth capabilities to remain undetected defeats the purpose of keeping the RHN guessing.

All too suspensefully true Harold.

Albeit, if the MAlign are to remain around long enough to survive a hopeful skirmish or three in the final book to become a thorn and adversary in Honor's offspring's sides, then their technology has to support that possibility. The only way Haven lasted so long against the RMN and vice versa was the tech sufficiently offsetting the deficiencies.

Without their unsurpassed stealth tech, where would that leave the MAlign, as an unworthy but capable adversary?