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US Presidential Candidates

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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by The E   » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:37 am

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biochem wrote:Apparently their concern is that ethics investigations are being initiated due to someone in the office who supports the Democrats is leaking the fact that an investigation is occurring to the press, the news hits page 1, the later finding that the investigation was unfounded gets buried in the back. The problem appears to be a genuine one but the midnight solution (opposed by just about everyone Republican and Democrat alike not in the house) wasn't the right solution to the problem. The biggest problem is the leaking of confidential information. What they really need to do instead is to fire the guy/gal who keeps doing this (I'm sure they know who it is) and put someone in charge who is draconian on the subject of leaking! Problem solved.

But in this case their personal emotions got ahead of their common sense. Those who were falsely accused were outraged and personally mad. Pesky emotions made them disregard common sense. Those who were guilty sensed an opportunity and went with it.

In the meantime they just gave more ammunition to Trump (whom most of them can't stand). The house has an opportunity but it will fade fast if they don't shoot themselves in the foot. Their best chance is the next 12-18 months. They need to make the most of it.


Even if that was the true motivation behind it, the fact that the bill as proposed would neuter the oversight office and make its work more or less impossible shows that this was less about doing a spot of housecleaning and more about eliminating a potential source of embarassment.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by dscott8   » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:31 am

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The E wrote:
biochem wrote:Apparently their concern is that ethics investigations are being initiated due to someone in the office who supports the Democrats is leaking the fact that an investigation is occurring to the press, the news hits page 1, the later finding that the investigation was unfounded gets buried in the back. The problem appears to be a genuine one but the midnight solution (opposed by just about everyone Republican and Democrat alike not in the house) wasn't the right solution to the problem. The biggest problem is the leaking of confidential information. What they really need to do instead is to fire the guy/gal who keeps doing this (I'm sure they know who it is) and put someone in charge who is draconian on the subject of leaking! Problem solved.

But in this case their personal emotions got ahead of their common sense. Those who were falsely accused were outraged and personally mad. Pesky emotions made them disregard common sense. Those who were guilty sensed an opportunity and went with it.

In the meantime they just gave more ammunition to Trump (whom most of them can't stand). The house has an opportunity but it will fade fast if they don't shoot themselves in the foot. Their best chance is the next 12-18 months. They need to make the most of it.


Even if that was the true motivation behind it, the fact that the bill as proposed would neuter the oversight office and make its work more or less impossible shows that this was less about doing a spot of housecleaning and more about eliminating a potential source of embarassment.


This whole thing was a grandstand play to counter criticism that Trump's cabinet full of crony capitalists was the opposite of "draining the swamp". They made it look like Trump took them to the woodshed, and he claimed credit for it, but the backlash was actually thousands of taxpayers calling & e-mailing their reps.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by gcomeau   » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:04 pm

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biochem wrote:Apparently their concern is that ethics investigations are being initiated due to someone in the office who supports the Democrats is leaking the fact that an investigation is occurring to the press,


What?

How can investigations be initiated due to the investigation already occurring?

And leaks to the press come from basically every government agency and department in the country. If that's grounds for eliminating the function then we should just shut down the entire government right now.

the news hits page 1, the later finding that the investigation was unfounded gets buried in the back. The problem appears to be a genuine one


Appears based on what?

but the midnight solution (opposed by just about everyone Republican and Democrat alike not in the house) wasn't the right solution to the problem. The biggest problem is the leaking of confidential information. What they really need to do instead is to fire the guy/gal who keeps doing this (I'm sure they know who it is) and put someone in charge who is draconian on the subject of leaking! Problem solved.


Yeah, because as we all know the reason the press gets leaks from the Pentagon, or the CIA.... which happen on a regular basis... is because those organizations are incredibly lax about people talking to the press.

But in this case their personal emotions got ahead of their common sense. Those who were falsely accused were outraged and personally mad.


And returning to the "based on what" question... who are these "falsely accused" exactly?
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Annachie   » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:23 am

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Ethics investigations should be public record.
Hell, they should be public investigations.

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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by WeirdlyWired   » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:41 am

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Annachie wrote:Ethics investigations should be public record.
Hell, they should be public investigations.

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Yes they should. And republicans should stop being hypocrites. All the talk of personal responsibility and actions having consequences, ios just that. As soon as someone tries to hold them accountable and giving consequences to their actions, they try to weasel out. Pull the public display of remorse, crocodile tears and breast-beating; OK dealt with, lets move on.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:16 pm

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biochem wrote:
Yep, the fbi has now changed their position from inconclusive to the Russians did it. I see 3 possibilities. 1. Inconclusive is by nature a fluid state and when they decided to take an up/down position they went with the Russians did it. 2. The cia was holding out on the fbi and gave them additional evidence. 3. Political pressure.



And now we see some more about all that amazing evidence...

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/05/polit ... index.html

"Included in that new information were intercepted conversations of Russian officials expressing happiness at Trump's win. Another official described some of the messages as congratulatory. "

Officials react to news, yaaay...

"Officials said this was just one of multiple indicators to give them high confidence of both Russian involvement and Russian intentions."

Wait, WHAT?!? Are they very very stupid or something? That´s not even in the same zipcode as an "indicator" FFS!

It would be far more shocking if they were UNhappy about it.

This is "evidence" on a level even worse than what was used to claim Saddam had WMDs(at least there, there WERE some vague indicators suggesting it was possible).
And why am i getting flashbacks to that spectacle? Oh right, US propaganda machine on high gear. How fun. Just like whenever they´re going to try to get rid of whatever government they currently dislike.


So, now they´re setting Trump up for a damned if you do, damned if you don´t, if he ignores the wardrums shouts of "Russia is a threat!" then enough yanks are going to be angry that he loses the next election(and probably loses more or less ability to act until then), and if he acts on something as pathetic like this, he leaves himself open for all kinds of mudslinging and propaganda attacks, even if he manages to get away with starting a war.

Wow, the democrats have definitely learned something from former president shrubbery´s regime.
I dunno, maybe they should try learning sometihng about democracy instead? Or maybe read up on what happens to empires?
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Imaginos1892   » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:41 pm

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They are the career politicians and their 'managers' and 'handlers'. ALL they can see is the next election. ALL they care about is winning it. And the ONLY guide they can believe in is 'what worked in the past'.

They don't care about the country, they don't care about the people, they don't care about the world. They will pretend to, as much as it takes, but all they care about is winning the election, rewarding their cronies, and enriching themselves. Crooked Clinton is the worst of the lot.
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Why do so many idiots believe that the way to solve our problems is to keep voting for the same shitheads that caused them in the first place?
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by gcomeau   » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:55 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:And now we see some more about all that amazing evidence...

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/05/polit ... index.html

"Included in that new information were intercepted conversations of Russian officials expressing happiness at Trump's win. Another official described some of the messages as congratulatory. "

Officials react to news, yaaay...


"Officials said this was just one of multiple indicators to give them high confidence of both Russian involvement and Russian intentions."

Wait, WHAT?!? Are they very very stupid or something? That´s not even in the same zipcode as an "indicator" FFS!

It would be far more shocking if they were UNhappy about it.


That is misrepresenting even that teeny tiny public summary of that data that was reported there. That detail about some of them being congratulatory is rather important and goes beyond "officials react to news". Russian officials saying "Trump won, yay!" is MUCH different than Russian officials saying "Trump won, good work guys!".


This is "evidence" on a level even worse than what was used to claim Saddam had WMDs(at least there, there WERE some vague indicators suggesting it was possible).


You do understand that the VAST bulk of the evidence we are talking about here is in the classified report, not a CNN article, right? Even the declassified portion of the public report isn't out yet, this is a *sliver* of the evidence. A freaking teaser.

And you are ignoring even the fraction of evidence presented in that article. They identified the Russian groups that performed the hack. They identified the go between that brought the data from those groups to Assange. Both of these data points are given there and you just disregard them and try to boil the entire thing down to "Russians happy" then say *that* isn't enough.

Well yeah, *that* wouldn't be enough. But *that* isn't what this is based on.

(Also, the detail that there are reports Trump's public skepticism is disconnected from his behavior in intel briefings suggests Trump doesn't actually have substantive objections to the evidence he's being given he's just publicly grandstanding to protect his ego with no regard for the consequences to the nation like the overgrown 6 year old he has always been. )
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:03 pm

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That is misrepresenting even that teeny tiny public summary of that data that was reported there. That detail about some of them being congratulatory is rather important and goes beyond "officials react to news". Russian officials saying "Trump won, yay!" is MUCH different than Russian officials saying "Trump won, good work guys!".


Ugh, THINK about what you´re saying there.

No it isn´t. Because the statement is that it supports the claim that Russia was behind the hacking. It says absolutely NOTHING about that and simply cannot be used as evidence for it.

And then there´s the fact that we don´t even know context. I can quote a Swedish official saying something almost identical, does that mean he was involved in the hacking?
Nope, he just said thanks to the man who had kept him up to date with information during the election ( and predicted the end result much closer to what happened than the majority of media managed ).

You do understand that the VAST bulk of the evidence we are talking about here is in the classified report, not a CNN article, right? Even the declassified portion of the public report isn't out yet, this is a *sliver* of the evidence. A freaking teaser.


Yes, funny thing that you know, exactly the same style of gradual presentation of evidence, with a constant baahrrage of nonsense propaganda in between to keep the flames hot, as in the years preceeding the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. How very strange!


Actually, you´re being gullible here. If there was any reason to actually retain secrecy on this, you would not hear ANY OF THIS until years later(if ever).

The fact that things like this is allowed to leak so easily, yet incompletely means it´s almost certainly a controlled leak, 100% intentional. Or in other words, propaganda.

They identified the Russian groups that performed the hack. They identified the go between that brought the data from those groups to Assange.


Really... How interesting then that their statements does not align with the rest of reality, isn´t it?

And funny thing about this you know? If that was actually true, it happened within hours after locating people, because that kind of linking today is quick.

This piecemeal halfassery just shows VERY CLEARLY that it´s an intentional media circus, while the fact that the "Big Revelations" keep contradicting known information suggests that their grounding in facts is fragile at best and outright lies more likely.

Again, go over the media war campaign that prepared for the Iraqi invasion. It´s painfully similar to this crap.
And we just had a US bigwig start talking about how "Russia is a threat".

Oh and they´re discrediting wikileaks as a bonus while they´re at it. Something official USA have wanted sooo bad for years now.

(Also, the detail that there are reports Trump's public skepticism is disconnected from his behavior in intel briefings suggests Trump doesn't actually have substantive objections to the evidence he's being given he's just publicly grandstanding to protect his ego with no regard for the consequences to the nation like the overgrown 6 year old he has always been. )


:roll:

No, that´s a cute little trick to discredit Trump AND try to make the "evidence" look more real at the same time.
You fell for it so easily, most others will as well.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by gcomeau   » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:27 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:Ugh, THINK about what you´re saying there.


Ugh. Thought about it. It still means what it means. And the latter is still clear evidence of involvement and intent.

There is a significant difference between a general celebratory statement "Yay 'X' happened!" indicating pleasure with an outcome, and a congratulatory statement indicating satisfaction at the outcome of your own or someone else's efforts "Yay X happened, good work guys, we did it!"

So when the intel community says they intercepted congratulatory statements between Russian officials concerning Trump winning the election, yes that's evidence.

And then there´s the fact that we don´t even know context.


The analysts do. You know, the ones who have read those classified intercepts and who specialize in this stuff...

Yes, funny thing that you know, exactly the same style of gradual presentation of evidence, with a constant baahrrage of nonsense propaganda in between to keep the flames hot, as in the years preceeding the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. How very strange!


How very strange that you have such a distorted memory of such relatively recent events? Yes it is.


The Iraq situation involved an administration that ordered the CIA to go find evidence of something that would serve their existing agenda of wanting to invade Iraq... CIA analysts coming back with their assessments that contained all kinds of skepticism and qualifiers... and then all the qualifiers and skepticism being dropped before the administration publicly reported the findings.



THIS is the Intel community themselves throwing up a red flag and saying "HEY! The Russians just ran a cyber warfare campaign to intervene in our election! And we're *really* sure about this. Maybe someone should pay attention!" People on *both* sides of the aisle looking at the intel and saying "crap, this is serious". And a few GOP and Trump partisans refusing to accept it because it casts doubt on the legitimacy of Trump's upcoming presidency.



They identified the Russian groups that performed the hack. They identified the go between that brought the data from those groups to Assange.


Really... How interesting then that their statements does not align with the rest of reality, isn´t it?


WTF are you even talking about? you mean the "rest of reality" as told by various blogs you read? What???

And funny thing about this you know? If that was actually true, it happened within hours after locating people, because that kind of linking today is quick.

This piecemeal halfassery just shows VERY CLEARLY that it´s an intentional media circus,



I repeat my previous question.



And please note than now, having been given the more comprehensive briefing, EVEN TRUMP is backing away from trying to continue to deny Russian involvement... and has now fallen back to denying it changed the election outcome (an absurd statement if there ever was one considering the margins involved and the widespread impact of the leaked material)


http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politic ... ng-n703971


"Donald Trump acknowledged after meeting with U.S. intelligence officials Friday that Russia has waged cyberattacks on America but continued to insist they had "absolutely no effect on the outcome" of the 2016 presidential election."
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