Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:If Manticore's own stealth technology enabled them to park probes close enough to the observation decks to view what was being served in the galleys, then certainly the Alignment's tech is at least a cut above. How close can the MA park a few Lenny Dets to the planet at optimum distance ...

It takes less stealth technology to hide a spider drive than it does to hide an impeller wedge. MAlign stealth is very good, but I question whether it is "a cut above" Manticoran -- or Havenite, for that matter.

Space is very large even around planet, especially when you go to the polars instead of the ecliptic. I do not know how much better a cut above has to be, but MA stealth is probably more than marginally better.

And if (despite assurances by RFC) MA was to use EEVs it has shown that it sets no real value on human life. it would not bother with surgical attacks. 100 years of nuclear winter should do the trick.

WeirdlyWired wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:It takes less stealth technology to hide a spider drive than it does to hide an impeller wedge. MAlign stealth is very good, but I question whether it is "a cut above" Manticoran -- or Havenite, for that matter.

Space is very large even around planet, especially when you go to the polars instead of the ecliptic. I do not know how much better a cut above has to be, but MA stealth is probably more than marginally better.

How can we tell? "A cut below" will suffice to hide a virtually undetectable drive better than Manticoran stealth can hide a wedge of any size. Either will be undetectable unless you trip over it, or run into it.

The difference in the amount of tech required to hide a few emissions vs huge gravitic anomolies means the MAlign simply does not need better stealth tech than Manticore, so why assume they must have better tech?

Thinking about designated successors, I suddenly wondered: are the commanders of US Antarctic bases on the list? And if not, why not? They're the most likely to survive a decapitation strike.

Cheers, John

WeirdlyWired wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:It takes less stealth technology to hide a spider drive than it does to hide an impeller wedge. MAlign stealth is very good, but I question whether it is "a cut above" Manticoran -- or Havenite, for that matter.

Space is very large even around planet, especially when you go to the polars instead of the ecliptic. I do not know how much better a cut above has to be, but MA stealth is probably more than marginally better.

Weird Harold wrote:How can we tell? "A cut below" will suffice to hide a virtually undetectable drive better than Manticoran stealth can hide a wedge of any size. Either will be undetectable unless you trip over it, or run into it.

The difference in the amount of tech required to hide a few emissions vs huge gravitic anomolies means the MAlign simply does not need better stealth tech than Manticore, so why assume they must have better tech?

Because, iinm (please correct me if I am), their technology hides an entire ship under power. IINM again (please correct me again), GA tech cannot do that. GA tech can hide a ship lying doggo. And with the Lenny Dees, they will be hiding a much larger ship. The fact that the MAlign turned the concept on its head and factored in the development of a propulsion system to be instrumental in the overall stealth design is besides the point. The overarching factor is the absolute accomplishment of the total stealth of a warship, not the total tech consumed by the objective.

The Alignment has time on their hands. They are not at war with anyone. They do not have systems that they have to project forward walls of battle units. They do not have a flank to cover. They do not have to worry about losing the initiative. They do not have gridlocked fights with their own political system. And they aren't encapsulated in a pressure filled sinkhole of an environment of quicksand trying to develop and battle yesterday's technologies to deal with their enemies. Each organization of the MAlign are free to research, at their own pace. Pressure free. Most of the plans that Anisimovna can conceive of and implement and lay unfettered are conceived with plenty of time to formulate. With centuries to play with, time is on their side. Centuries for an Alpha to ponder a plan is conducive to the perfect crime. Little wonder that they would have factored in an overall propulsion design to sit center stage and complement their stealth technology. Certainly if you factor in the drive unit as part of and not separate from the stealth tech, as is obvious that the MAlign did, then it certainly makes it a cut above, in my book.

"Son, life is all in the conception."

My father certainly hit that nail on its head.

cthia wrote:Because, iinm (please correct me if I am), their technology hides an entire ship under power. IINM again (please correct me again), GA tech cannot do that. GA tech can hide a ship lying doggo. And with the Lenny Dees, they will be hiding a much larger ship. The fact that the MAlign turned the concept on its head and factored in the development of a propulsion system to be instrumental in the overall stealth design is besides the point. The overarching factor is the absolute accomplishment of the total stealth of a warship, not the total tech consumed by the objective.

Manticoran tech can hide a reccon drone moving into position and shadowing an enemy ship/formation; that implies that Manticoran tech can hide an active impeller wedge.

MAlign tech can hide a spider drive ship, which is virtually undetectable under power without ANY stealth.

Which is the harder task?

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:Because, iinm (please correct me if I am), their technology hides an entire ship under power. IINM again (please correct me again), GA tech cannot do that. GA tech can hide a ship lying doggo. And with the Lenny Dees, they will be hiding a much larger ship. The fact that the MAlign turned the concept on its head and factored in the development of a propulsion system to be instrumental in the overall stealth design is besides the point. The overarching factor is the absolute accomplishment of the total stealth of a warship, not the total tech consumed by the objective.

Manticoran tech can hide a reccon drone moving into position and shadowing an enemy ship/formation; that implies that Manticoran tech can hide an active impeller wedge.

No Harold. It doesn't imply that. Hiding a recon drone and hiding a much larger ship under power is two different balls of wax.

The Manticorans always resorted to tactics which includes concealing Honor's ships by positioning other wedges in front of hers. They can NOT hide a ship's wedge under power. They can play tricks with it, to make it appear as a different class of ship. But they can not hide it. And they certainly cannot enter a system undetected. Unless the books I've read is missing a chapter or two.

MAlign tech can hide a spider drive ship, which is virtually undetectable under power without ANY stealth.

Which is the harder task?

Again, you are confusing the difficulty of the task with the end result. The objective is to hide a ship, preferably under power. That is the harder task! You can't fight a ship you cannot see. This is simple Harold. As simple as 1+1=2. No logic involved. Even when you're inebriated you can see in twos.

The MAlign designed a propulsion unit to be central to the stealth equation. They work smart not hard.

The GA's approach toward stealth may be more difficult for the MAlign to achieve if it went that route. But they are not playing by the GA's stealth paradigm. They are playing by their own tech and their own solution to the objective of hiding a ship. Considering the absolute objective of ship concealment, the Manticoran's lose. And if the MA were to be successful in designing probes with their ship's capability, then...

I think what is confusing you is the overarching objective for any navy. Which is to hide a warship, not hide a wedge.

If Manticore can't hide low-power wedges, along with their warships, then how did the DDs scouting Haven's systems(mainly between Solon & Lovat) manage to complete their missions?

There are numerous other instances in textev where warships running with low powered wedges manage to avoid detection for some time.

And whilst textev has told us that the MA can't detect their own spider drives at ranges of above a light second(300,000km), this was in reference to passive sensors - ie, gravitics. It did not include active sensors(LIDAR), which is normally effective up to a million kilometres.

The GA may not be able to cover an entire star system with LIDAR, but they should be able to cover a dozen million kilometres of space in any direction with active search platforms - enough to protect a planet and its orbitals.

The MA had only one shot at Manticore. They failed to make it quickly enough, to catch the RMN's new Apollo-capable construction. They failed again when their entire plan relied on Haven and Manticore remaining at war and they ended up allying. Now the MA can't even carry out an Oyster Bay II against Haven or New Berlin.

Operation Oyster Bay? More like Operation Neobarbarossa.

munroburton wrote:And whilst textev has told us that the MA can't detect their own spider drives at ranges of above a light second(300,000km), this was in reference to passive sensors - ie, gravitics. It did not include active sensors(LIDAR), which is normally effective up to a million kilometres.

No, they are completely undetectable by active sensors in normally used portions of the EM spectrum.

"Unlike the starships of most navies, the MAN's scouts hadn't settled for simple smart paint. Other ships could control and reconfigure their "paint" at will, transforming their hulls—or portions of those hulls—into whatever they needed at any given moment, from nearly perfectly reflective surfaces to black bodies. The Ghosts' capabilities, however, went much further than that. Instead of the relatively simpleminded nanotech of most ships' "paint," the surface of Apparition's hull was capable of mimicking effectively any portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. Her passive sensors detected any incoming radiation, from infrared through cosmic rays, and her computers mapped the data onto her hull, where her extraordinarily capable nannies reproduced it. In effect, anyone looking at Apparition when her stealth was fully engaged would "see" whatever the sensors exactly opposite his viewpoint "saw," as if the entire ship were a single sheet of crystoplast.

"That was the theory, at least, and in this case, what theory predicted and reality achieved were remarkably close together."

Ummm... no.

That is a defense against _passive_ sensors, because it retransmits all incoming signals on the far side of the ship - and if it works as advertised, people on the far side of the ship might even wonder why they're picking up those lidar/radar pulses at the wrong strength, if they're paying attention. In the meantime, the people transmitting the pulses _will_ see reflections from the hull. In fact, it's not unlikely that this system actually enhances reflections, given the efficiency with which the surface acts as a radiator.

kzt wrote:

munroburton wrote:And whilst textev has told us that the MA can't detect their own spider drives at ranges of above a light second(300,000km), this was in reference to passive sensors - ie, gravitics. It did not include active sensors(LIDAR), which is normally effective up to a million kilometres.

No, they are completely undetectable by active sensors in normally used portions of the EM spectrum.

"Unlike the starships of most navies, the MAN's scouts hadn't settled for simple smart paint. Other ships could control and reconfigure their "paint" at will, transforming their hulls—or portions of those hulls—into whatever they needed at any given moment, from nearly perfectly reflective surfaces to black bodies. The Ghosts' capabilities, however, went much further than that. Instead of the relatively simpleminded nanotech of most ships' "paint," the surface of Apparition's hull was capable of mimicking effectively any portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. Her passive sensors detected any incoming radiation, from infrared through cosmic rays, and her computers mapped the data onto her hull, where her extraordinarily capable nannies reproduced it. In effect, anyone looking at Apparition when her stealth was fully engaged would "see" whatever the sensors exactly opposite his viewpoint "saw," as if the entire ship were a single sheet of crystoplast.

"That was the theory, at least, and in this case, what theory predicted and reality achieved were remarkably close together."

Interesting thread. But I'm struggling with it. Cthia, your premise is too neat and all inclusive. In real life all families have black sheep who would steer clear of the reunion. Or, put another way, real life is messy. The implausibility level is too high. To be sure what you describe is possible on the level of a mathematical probability scale, but really, is it gonna happen?

Secondly, is this really the Honorverse we are discussing? Obviously enough we are within the Honorverse setting with Honorverse geography and characters. But it's not the Honorverse story. RFC doesn't write this way. I am comparatively new to the forums, but I have been reading David going all the way back to OBS.

I think what we are dealing with is a plot line that needs its own universe with its own context.

Don

-