"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

Jonathan_S wrote:

Talkregh wrote:Something that has been in my mind is that in the Honorverse the tactical situation has been heavily unbalanced by two primary factors: the increased range of the missiles, and the new LACs.

An no one seems to be doing anything to address it. I dont mean by this that tactical doctrine is not being changed to address it. I mean that no one has gone to the drawing board looking for a way to compensate, or mitigate, this developments.

Its something that (did i say it before?) bugs me because i´m a historian with an interest in military history. Usually you can see fairly clearly in David Weber´s works the axioms that have guided the evolution of military techonology, doctrine, and thinking. But in this case the closest is Grayson´s superiority fighter.

Edit: First I forgot to say - welcome to the forums (or at least welcome to posting here). Please have a virtual beverage of your choice on me. And I hope the following doesn't discourage you from participating here.


I think you're selling the innovations short. Off the top of my head the anti-missile anti-LAC tech improvements (not just tactical doctrine) since Buttercup unleashed them are:
1) GSN Katana space superiority LAC (which you mentioned)
2) RMN Mk30 130,000gees CMs (Battle of Sidemore) improved enagement range against missiles
3) RMN Mk31 130,00o gees for an extra 15 seconds CMs even more improved engagent range (3+ million km vs ~1.5 million km with older CMs)
4) Keyhole - allowing vastly increased numbers of CM salvos (11 or so vs 3-4) (Oh and from both broadsides at once, doubling the anti-missile density per salvo)
5) The Viper anti-LAC missile (used by the aforementioned Katana)
6) Adapting CM launchers of modern units from DDs - SD(P)s to also fire the Viper giving them a devistating anti-LAC capability
6) Probably should throw in Bow/Stern walls making it even harder for missiles to get a clean shot at the ships
7) Improved free flying decoys (Lorelie)
8) RHN Triple-Ripple missiles (yes a tactical invocation, but one enabled by the specially designed missile warheads)
9) RHN LACs - designed primarily to blunt the offensive use of RMN/GSN LACs.

And of course newer designs are being build with greater numbers of point defense mountings, and more capable ones.


So people have already put in a lot of work blunting the LAC and missile storm threats. Can they do more, certainly. And Apollo does tilt the balance back towards offense for the moment after Keyhole had given a massive boost to defense.

So I don't see where the GA has a need for desperate stop-gap measures to fend off missile swarms or LAC strikes. (Leaving aside that the SLN doesn't appear to have any way to use LACs offensively - nor are they likely to have LACs capable of threatening even old-style units except in vast numbers).
So the need for an AA escort seems lacking - at least for the good guys. Now maybe the League will try such a bodge - I'd bet against it working but I could see them desperate enough to try...

One point not mentioned yet is why the autocannon was dropped from gthe offensive arsenal to begib with - stand off range. Lasers, with much lower cycle rates got out to further distances, faster than a bullet.

And with the advent of the laserhead, the auto cannon has no chance. Laser head stand off ranges are 30 to 50 thousand kilometers now. That is 3-4 planetary diameters at their closest approach. You just cannot get enough lead far enough out in time to stop them. And this is only self defense, not even the distances needed for mutual defense

The obvious counter to this argument is saturating the Space around the ship with shots (sandcasting) however, given that the average honorverse ship accelerates at over 300Gs, any cloud generated will quickly fall behind the ship, and any cloud of slugs dense enough to guarantee interception will block sensors and weapons.

Theemile wrote: snip

The obvious counter to this argument is saturating the Space around the ship with shots (sandcasting) however, given that the average honorverse ship accelerates at over 300Gs, any cloud generated will quickly fall behind the ship, and any cloud of slugs dense enough to guarantee interception will block sensors and weapons.

Uh as I travel in my SD at 300gs, any ball bearings I toss out at 100gs will also be starting from my baseline 300 thus accelerating out at eq 400gs. just saying.

Obvious counter is that moment of inertia energy transfer of each round does not equal the energy transfer of the laser. That is why even the SLN is shifting awat=y from auto cannon.

kzt wrote:

Sigs wrote:So? Remind me again how getting missiles with the same range that you already have changes anything? When the GA can attack you from 15,20,30,40 million km this doesn't change anything. If they show up at a GA system with pods in tow and the GA picket starts sniping at them from 40 million km by the time they get to 9 million the only thing they have coming at them is life pods. Remind me how much good it did for 400+ SD's to fire off 50,000 + missiles they couldn't control at an enemy with a fraction of their number?

My base assumption is that you replied to is that they are building Apollo Mk23s using stolen plans from either a sympathizer on Beowulf or a greedy guy in the RHN or IAN. So can you explain why you think they won't be effective at long range?

Before Adm, Byng's untimely retirement, didn't he speculate that best SLN estimats was that funtional FTL would require a platform the size of an SD?
You have to develop thentechnology to recreate manticoral production. You need to build the tools to build the tools to build the tools to make the missile, the magnetic pinch, the power drives. You need the FTL Keyhile Two platforms, AND you need the conrol links to control the hunderds of Apollo E missiles that control the other 7 missiles in each pod launch. Without the specs on that, you basically have a very smart missile controlling 7 very good missiles against the same very smart missile being constantly updated from a much more powerful shipboard computer.

It is the command and control loop that is the Achilles Heel of long missile ranges. Which is why Theisman launched the attack against Manticore before Keyhole Two could be widely distributed. Which is why

[SoV p685] Scott Tremain commented: What they don't have is anything like our targeting capability at long ranges. And judging from the Nevadas we've been able to strip down and examine, they can't control anywhere near the birds we can, either.

It took 60 years+ of R&D todevelop the tech, Even Haven with the pressure of combat can't duplicate that tech. Sure, even the Manties acknowlege that given time the SL can duplicate the tech. But even with working models, I'm not sure you're significantly closing the gap.

WeirdlyWired wrote:
It took 60 years+ of R&D todevelop the tech, Even Haven with the pressure of combat can't duplicate that tech. Sure, even the Manties acknowlege that given time the SL can duplicate the tech. But even with working models, I'm not sure you're significantly closing the gap.

Yes, but having working samples allowed the RHN to play catch-up to Manticoran advances post-Buttercup and pre-Beatrice faster than the Manticorans could play keep-away. Throughout the entirety of AAC, Theisman repeatedly states both he, and his analysts at the Octagon agree that Havenite tech, thanks to Erewhon turning over manuals and likely working tech, is what allowed them to do that catching up, basically by showing what's possible instead of playing "is this possible, well let's try anyways."


So as long as the Sollies can get functional Alliance tech back to a Yard, they'd take little more than a decade to pull a Republican Bolthole equalization. They wouldn't be as good as Alliance ships, but even Theisman's estimates went from Thunderbolt "each of their ships is worth about two of ours" to pre-Beatrice "each of their ships is worth about 1.3 of ours" just based on the reverse-engineering Foraker had done in less than 4 years.

If the Havenites can take 4-6 years to go from having no podlayers, let alone a design for them, or MDM's, then the League could have something approximating both in 10. Except they can't afford to do that R&D, they don't have the physical captured hardware they'll need, and outside of an extremely small group (Al-Fanudahi's conspirators) Solly ONI still have NIH syndrome. But they certainly won't need the 60+ years Manticore required, because again, the Sollies know it's possible so they can brute force a way simply because they aren't held back by "you can't do that, everybody KNOWS you can't do that!"

WeirdlyWired wrote:

Theemile wrote: snip

The obvious counter to this argument is saturating the Space around the ship with shots (sandcasting) however, given that the average honorverse ship accelerates at over 300Gs, any cloud generated will quickly fall behind the ship, and any cloud of slugs dense enough to guarantee interception will block sensors and weapons.

Uh as I travel in my SD at 300gs, any ball bearings I toss out at 100gs will also be starting from my baseline 300 thus accelerating out at eq 400gs. just saying.

Obvious counter is that moment of inertia energy transfer of each round does not equal the energy transfer of the laser. That is why even the SLN is shifting awat=y from auto cannon.

What force is continuing to accelerate the ball bearings once they've been fired?

It's comparable to throwing trash out of a moving car. Sure, the absence of atmosphere and planetary gravity means the trash doesn't slow down and stays besides the car - if the car is cruising constantly at 50mph. No acceleration.

To make this analogy work, the car is actually adding 5mph to its total speed each second. Suppose a coffee cup is thrown out at 50mph - five seconds later, the car will be moving at 75mph. The cup, in a vacuum, will still be moving at 50mph.

WeirdlyWired wrote:It took 60 years+ of R&D todevelop the tech, Even Haven with the pressure of combat can't duplicate that tech. Sure, even the Manties acknowlege that given time the SL can duplicate the tech. But even with working models, I'm not sure you're significantly closing the gap.

The Chinese and Russians engaged in espionage enage to steal designs from the west. The f-35 clone the Chinese just unveiled didn't require 20 years of R&D at the cost of hundreds of billions. The Russians developed their first nukes without the collection of Nobel prize winners and the enormous R&D investments or the huge investments in manpower because their spies gave all the designs for the weapons and infrastructure to Moscow Center.

It works really, really well. They are always going to be trailing somewhat, but since they don't have to pay for R&D they can instead build a lot more copies than the West.

Somtaaw wrote:

WeirdlyWired wrote:
It took 60 years+ of R&D todevelop the tech, Even Haven with the pressure of combat can't duplicate that tech. Sure, even the Manties acknowlege that given time the SL can duplicate the tech. But even with working models, I'm not sure you're significantly closing the gap.

Yes, but having working samples allowed the RHN to play catch-up to Manticoran advances post-Buttercup and pre-Beatrice faster than the Manticorans could play keep-away. Throughout the entirety of AAC, Theisman repeatedly states both he, and his analysts at the Octagon agree that Havenite tech, thanks to Erewhon turning over manuals and likely working tech, is what allowed them to do that catching up, basically by showing what's possible instead of playing "is this possible, well let's try anyways."


So as long as the Sollies can get functional Alliance tech back to a Yard, they'd take little more than a decade to pull a Republican Bolthole equalization. They wouldn't be as good as Alliance ships, but even Theisman's estimates went from Thunderbolt "each of their ships is worth about two of ours" to pre-Beatrice "each of their ships is worth about 1.3 of ours" just based on the reverse-engineering Foraker had done in less than 4 years.

If the Havenites can take 4-6 years to go from having no podlayers, let alone a design for them, or MDM's, then the League could have something approximating both in 10. Except they can't afford to do that R&D, they don't have the physical captured hardware they'll need, and outside of an extremely small group (Al-Fanudahi's conspirators) Solly ONI still have NIH syndrome. But they certainly won't need the 60+ years Manticore required, because again, the Sollies know it's possible so they can brute force a way simply because they aren't held back by "you can't do that, everybody KNOWS you can't do that!"

David said once that the Havenites already had a podlayer on paper before they saw one in Buttercup. Ideas of how to better optimize pods in battle had been looked at for several years and reports about the Wayfarer had been analyzed and similar conclusions had been reached by the Havenite Navy and a Podlayer concept was being researched and designed during the 1st war.

MDMs however were a cold realization at Buttercup.

MaxxQ wrote:
The strongest armor is that which is a single piece, provided there are no moving parts. Gas welding bottles (oxy-acetylene, etc.) are single-piece bottles, with a valve at one end. These are easy to make and hold thousands of PSI with no problems. Try doing that with a sub. Subs are made of several sections that are welded together. Each of those welds is a weak point. Same with modern warships. No one currently has the ability to make single-piece armored hulls for ships or subs beyond a certain size.

Okay, granted, one piece hulls would be that much stronger.

But if you can't open the bloody things up then how does Chief Engineer Snotty get new and damned LARGE pieces of equipment into that hull to replace the older pieces that Captain Qwerk has somehow managed to break?

Before First Hancock battlecruiser HMS Nike needed internal work to correct a major defect that required Paul Tankersley and his shipyard to open the hull to gain access. This is in line with my comment about being able to open the hull of a deep diving nuclear submarine in order to fix or replace equipment that won't fit through the torpedo loading or personnel hatches in the hull. After they are done with the work the shipyard WILL close the hull openings back up, as strong as new or so close it makes no difference. A sub capable of 1500 or 2000 foot dives before the refit will be capable of that same performance AFTER the work is done.

Armored warships HAVE to be designed to not only stand up to incredible punishment but also to be repaired afterward. Many of those repairs are going to REQUIRE being able to gain access to the hull interior through openings larger than the designed in hatches.

If the SD HMS Hercules requires heavy repair or extensive refit to her powerplants I suspect a Manty shipyard (once they get rebuilt) is going to have the ability to open her hull, make the repairs or install the replacements and close her back up as good as new just as we do today with those submarines I mentioned.

EDIT: Yes, yes I know. HMS Hercules is an old SD and if she breaks something major requiring that kind of refit that would probably hasten her recall home for decommissioning and recycling. I was using her as an example.

Podlayers have that big set of armored hatches in their sterns that (I assume) can be used for maintenance access, but the newer BCs of the Flight 1 and 2 Nike class do not. How does the repair ship or shipyard gain access to the interior if there isn't a handy hole blasted into the hull or wide set of hatches to work through?

In real life I've helped take a couple of ships (one of them WWII CV sized) through complex overhauls. Sometimes you just have to cut your own opening in the bottom of the ship to get to and unscrew the screwed up equipment either by repairing it or replacing it.

Theemile wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:So as long as the Sollies can get functional Alliance tech back to a Yard, they'd take little more than a decade to pull a Republican Bolthole equalization. They wouldn't be as good as Alliance ships, but even Theisman's estimates went from Thunderbolt "each of their ships is worth about two of ours" to pre-Beatrice "each of their ships is worth about 1.3 of ours" just based on the reverse-engineering Foraker had done in less than 4 years.

If the Havenites can take 4-6 years to go from having no podlayers, let alone a design for them, or MDM's, then the League could have something approximating both in 10. Except they can't afford to do that R&D, they don't have the physical captured hardware they'll need, and outside of an extremely small group (Al-Fanudahi's conspirators) Solly ONI still have NIH syndrome. But they certainly won't need the 60+ years Manticore required, because again, the Sollies know it's possible so they can brute force a way simply because they aren't held back by "you can't do that, everybody KNOWS you can't do that!"

David said once that the Havenites already had a podlayer on paper before they saw one in Buttercup. Ideas of how to better optimize pods in battle had been looked at for several years and reports about the Wayfarer had been analyzed and similar conclusions had been reached by the Havenite Navy and a Podlayer concept was being researched and designed during the 1st war.

MDMs however were a cold realization at Buttercup.

Textev doesn't support that. Right near the beginning of AAC, when we first find out about Foraker being out at Bolthole, we know that the Intelligence branches of StateSec had read Foraker's report about Wayfarer, but more or less dismissed them.

But the Havenite Navy almost definitely did not had a full podlaying superdreadnought blueprint, just that "ok, it's possible, but why bother?" Foraker might have done a light sketch up on her off-duty hours, but remember how long Manticore figured it'd take to design a DN(P) and start building those, was about 6-8 months for the blueprint design alone, and then the 12-18 months or whatever it was to start building the DN(P)'s themselves.

Theisman & Pritchart spent 3 T-years fighting their multi-cornered civil war, which is almost exactly the time it takes to design a brand new superdreadnought design, start laying down the hulls, and finishing the first 60 that Foraker had at said first meeting. And that she specifically stated she hadn't gotten target number of slips built, which indicates she'd bottlenecked due to limited construction slips.


And actually, knowing that David's also had Givens guessing Bolthole was actually established prior to the CPS by the Legislaturalists, I'm actually thinking Bolthole was essentially the PRH's version of Project Gram and Weyland, which also had limited construction (due to the secrecy of the projects under R&D). It makes sense, when you then factor in that the PRH under Pierre upsized Bolthole and was also buying Solly tech under the table, but needed somewhere to turn Solly 'trash' into viable technologies which then resulted in stuff such as the Mars class cruisers, and the Havenite pods all were totally black, Manticore barely had an inkling either existed until they were already hitting the frontline.

But I'm starting to stray, until Foraker was banished to Bolthole by Theisman, Haven definitely did not have a podlayer design in blueprints yet. The Buttercup Offensive was incredibly short, and no Havenite saw any of it being used; and it took the shock passing for OSJ to look at it calmly enough to understand it was simple escalation from the Wayfarer.

robert132 wrote:
Podlayers have that big set of armored hatches in their sterns that (I assume) can be used for maintenance access, but the newer BCs of the Flight 1 and 2 Nike class do not. How does the repair ship or shipyard gain access to the interior if there isn't a handy hole blasted into the hull or wide set of hatches to work through?

the Nike classes were designed from the getgo with Keyhole-1 and we know those are pretty large. So for all Keyhole capable ships, that's going to be one of the number 1 ways to insert new equipment without touching the considerably thicker armor on the broadsides.

The internal docking cradle is undoubtedly armored, but it's not going to be as heavy as the true broadsides, and once you get past that thinner armor you just had standard (unarmored) bulkheads to chop up to move anything.