Detweiler and Sons

cthia wrote:Leonard Detweiler was the founding father of the entire mess. That would make the LRPB somewhat a product of him. No?

He founded "The Detweiller Plan" remember lots more people departed Beowulf for Mesa than the Beowulfers imagined would. But, yes he founded the entire mess.

cthia wrote:We need more input regarding the LRPB. Is it mentioned where they are based? I wonder if they were based out of Mesa and was one of the components relocated via Houdini.

Definitely on Mesa because Herlander and his wife were being called in to consult with them. Not in the complex Jack McBride destroyed. Certainly it was. How else are they ging to keep developing their genetic overlord race?

Cthia wrote: I ask because it seems that they would need to keep in contact with humanity outside of the Alignment.

No, probably not. Why would they want to? The Detweiler plan seems to be to develop this race of supermench, a fully developed society of Alphas, Betas and basically slaves. Spread it within the Rennaisance Faction and destroy any planet who does not bow to the ultimate wisdom of Genetic Uplift.

It is not designed for the genetic uplify of all humans, merely Detweiller's fellow Alpha lines.

WeirdlyWired wrote:

cthia wrote:Leonard Detweiler was the founding father of the entire mess. That would make the LRPB somewhat a product of him. No?

He founded "The Detweiller Plan" remember lots more people departed Beowulf for Mesa than the Beowulfers imagined would. But, yes he founded the entire mess.

cthia wrote:We need more input regarding the LRPB. Is it mentioned where they are based? I wonder if they were based out of Mesa and was one of the components relocated via Houdini.

Definitely on Mesa because Herlander and his wife were being called in to consult with them. Not in the complex Jack McBride destroyed. Certainly it was. How else are they ging to keep developing their genetic overlord race?

Cthia wrote: I ask because it seems that they would need to keep in contact with humanity outside of the Alignment.

No, probably not. Why would they want to? The Detweiler plan seems to be to develop this race of supermench, a fully developed society of Alphas, Betas and basically slaves. Spread it within the Rennaisance Faction and destroy any planet who does not bow to the ultimate wisdom of Genetic Uplift.

It is not designed for the genetic uplify of all humans, merely Detweiller's fellow Alpha lines.

Yes, but their ultimate plan at some point in the "agreeable" future is the genetic uplift of "all" of humanity—that point where all of the GA, SL and Beowulfan obstacles are removed. At that point the pitch will be made to humanity and the sell is on. However, I cannot imagine that "all" of humanity—being a given that humanity will be amenable to the plan—will want, or need, the more extreme genetic changes. I will also assume that there will always remain a need for the lower lines, slaves and the like.

All of this being a given, I'm taking into account that only the Alpha lines are perfect. I'm assuming that humanity will want the lower lines improved—the imperfections of the level removed. I'm not a geneticist and I haven't spoken with any of my qualified Romanian friends, but I'd think that base human DNA and test subjects would always be needed for further research, which I imagine is still ongoing. I always assumed that the Malignment needs pure human DNA and test subjects. Never mind how they acquire them, I suppose.

At any rate, the LRPB's scope and directive is tailored towards its premiere genetic lines which has imperfections themselves. It seems to me that pure human DNA will always be needed to make improvements—considering the little to no understanding of genetic tampering I have.

cthia wrote:We need more input regarding the LRPB. Is it mentioned where they are based? I wonder if they were based out of Mesa and was one of the components relocated via Houdini.

WeirdlyWired wrote:Definitely on Mesa because Herlander and his wife were being called in to consult with them. Not in the complex Jack McBride destroyed. Certainly it was. How else are they ging to keep developing their genetic overlord race?

The entire Honorverse is pretty much dead set against their level of research and I assume that the brunt of their entire efforts are illegal and that their Earth equivalents of our own three letter organizations to enforce conformity are in place—similar to our own FDA, CMS and FDT and the scope of their responsibilities regarding genetic research. For that reason I didn't think Mesa was safe to have such labs. Isn't that why they relocated in the first place?

If not emplaced, our own humanity would be creating similar abortions in genetic research as the automobile industry with its driverless cars.

Garth 2 wrote:One of the consequences of Houdini that doesn't seem to have been discussed, is the death of Albrecht Detweiler on Mesa, and the consequences for the leadership of the Alignment.
It's fairly clear that prior to Albrecht Detweiler, that Detweiler "family unit" was (probably) only a single child pre-generation and therefore the transfer of leadership was clear cut but Albrecht Detweiler had three sons and therefore I'm wondering:...

Weird Harold wrote:1: There were Six sons, not three. They were named earlier in this thread, but I have trouble remembering my own name sometimes.

2: As far as 99% of the Onion is concerned, the leader of the MAlign is "Alpha One." Benjamin, Albrecht's "number one son", can simply issue orders as "Alpha One" and very few will know the difference.

3: The general assumption is that the succession of "Alpha One" would go in alphabetical order -- Benjamin, then Colin, and so on down to Gervais. Each of the sons (clones, actually) had responsibility for a specific area of the MAlign -- Admin, R&D, Security/Espionage, etc. IIRC, there is Textev for all of their areas of responsibility.

4: I don't think that the Renaissance Factor will be materially disrupted by Albrecht's death. The leaders of the RF did know Albrecht and at least some of his sons, but they should be satisfied with the Succession as long as the sons stay in control. If the Detweiler line is eliminated -- i.e. all six sons and their progeny are eliminated somehow -- then the RF might fragment or fall to some internal power struggle. As long as there is a Detweiler to succeed to "Alpha One," even if it takes a regency council, the RF will proceed according to the master plan.

Theemile wrote:Even if every Detweiller dies, they are clones of the Detweiller lineage. You can't tell me that there isn't a backup or 7 in labs somewhere. True believers could grow a new Hitle.... I mean Detweiller at will, at any time. Heck, there could be another fetus in stasis, ready to go if needed. The question would be who indoctrinat....I mean raises the child to be the new leader. The inducing power structure over who raises and influences the new Detweiller will probably be the biggest power struggle if the remaining Detweilers were eliminated.

JohnRoth wrote:It's not just a matter of there being backups in the labs. The Detweiller line has a lot of Family knowledge and attitude that's passed down from parents to children. An Albrecht Detweiller clone raised somewhere else than the Detweiller Family and in a different social situation (Darius instead of Mesa, for example) would have a rather different view of what needs to be done and how to go about doing it.

There would also be a significant gap of at least two and more likely four decades before a newly created clone would be able to take over. There's a weight of events there.

There is a designated successor. We don't know who it is, but Albrecht specified it, and I would expect that everyone on level 2 (that is, the people who know Albrecht personally) knows who it is. Practically, it's got to be either Benjamin or Colin - we have barely heard of Daniel and Everett, the two research heads, and all we know about Franklin and Gervais is their names.

Also, Albrecht said that they are safe on Darius, but Rufino C. is waiting for them to arrive with Albrecht. Whether or not they actually did is a dangling thread.

I understand Theemile's thought. I think he is simply stating that it is highly likely that the Detweiler plan could envisage a long term contingency plan and keep genetic material on ice, much as the thought of the possibility that the Winton dynasty would freeze Winton blood— * the similar concept that was brought up in the "Eridani Edict Violation" thread.

We can't imagine that scenario being optimum but certainly orders of magnitude better than the alternative of having nothing to fall back on. And surely manageable given the centuries old slate of bedrock that the Alignment are accustomed to building on.

* Eridani Edict Violation thread...
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8368

cthia wrote: SNIP

The entire Honorverse is pretty much dead set against their level of research and I assume that the brunt of their entire efforts are illegal and that their Earth equivalents of our own three letter organizations to enforce conformity are in place—similar to our own FDA, CMS and FDT and the scope of their responsibilities regarding genetic research. For that reason I didn't think Mesa was safe to have such labs. Isn't that why they relocated in the first place?

If not emplaced, our own humanity would be creating similar abortions in genetic research as the automobile industry with its driverless cars.

Bolding mine. YES, of course. Which is why Mesa is the premier outlaw planet in the Honorverse. It is exactly because Beowulf ans Old Earth outlawed certain types of genetic manipulation that Lenny D left and settled Mesa.

Textev: SoV p722' 'They weren taught that Leonard would have rejected the terrible cancer which had grown within the society of Mesans its members gave up the struggle and accepted- embraced - the outlaw status the rest ofthe galaxy had forced upon them , and that the Alignment had arise in large part as a reaction against that institution [genetic slavery]The Alignment's great mission was to reclaim leonard's original, glorious vision. To be its defender, its champion- its standard bearer. That vision must be carried to triumph, and if the benighted parochialism of the rest of the galaxy rejected the brightness of its promise, then the people of Darius were prepared for whtever struggle might be required.'

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:We need more input regarding the LRPB. Is it mentioned where they are based? I wonder if they were based out of Mesa and was one of the components relocated via Houdini.

Definitely on Mesa because Herlander and his wife were being called in to consult with them. Not in the complex Jack McBride destroyed. Certainly it was. How else are they ging to keep developing their genetic overlord race?

Cthia wrote: I ask because it seems that they would need to keep in contact with humanity outside of the Alignment.

No, probably not. Why would they want to? The Detweiler plan seems to be to develop this race of supermench, a fully developed society of Alphas, Betas and basically slaves. Spread it within the Rennaisance Faction and destroy any planet who does not bow to the ultimate wisdom of Genetic Uplift.

It is not designed for the genetic uplify of all humans, merely Detweiller's fellow Alpha lines.

Yes, but their ultimate plan at some point in the "agreeable" future is the genetic uplift of "all" of humanity—that point where all of the GA, SL and Beowulfan obstacles are removed. At that point the pitch will be made to humanity and the sell is on. However, I cannot imagine that "all" of humanity—being a given that humanity will be amenable to the plan—will want, or need, the more extreme genetic changes. I will also assume that there will always remain a need for the lower lines, slaves and the like.

All of this being a given, I'm taking into account that only the Alpha lines are perfect. I'm assuming that humanity will want the lower lines improved—the imperfections of the level removed. I'm not a geneticist and I haven't spoken with any of my qualified Romanian friends, but I'd think that base human DNA and test subjects would always be needed for further research, which I imagine is still ongoing. I always assumed that the Malignment needs pure human DNA and test subjects. Never mind how they acquire them, I suppose.

At any rate, the LRPB's scope and directive is tailored towards its premiere genetic lines which has imperfections themselves. It seems to me that pure human DNA will always be needed to make improvements—considering the little to no understanding of genetic tampering I have.[/quote]

If that were the case, then why just accept Beowulf's decision? Remember beowulf is the genegineering capital of the Solaan league. Honor's mother is one of THE premier Genegineers of a long family of premier genegineers. She does work to improve each individual's genome SEE Declaration of Helsinki, principles.

DoH can be used as the opposition to Lenny D. creating a class of genetic slaves, or Scrags or any of the other genetically manipulated "soldiers" of the last Earth war would be a violation. Which is exactly what they wanted
to prevent.

Lenny D wanted to prove that test tube humans were genetically superior to "natural seletion" ones. Afer so much experimentation, they would see little need for "wild" human DNA. But any wld humans willing to see the light and embrace their position as tertiary citizens, less than "seccies" would graciously be allowed to survive.

How many of the brothers are going to cope when it goes from the abstract to being real?

After all that what turned both Jack McBride and Herlander "back to being sensible people", especially with the realisation that not everyone will be uplifted.

We know that even within the Onion, there are people who feel that keeping Manpower around was a mistake (though how many of them survived Houdini is questionable), so how many of them are going to be shaping the next step of the Alignment and do any of the brothers fit into this group?

cthia wrote:One problem has been cited of a company wanting to have a design of "semi-autonomous" control. They realize that there are just some variables that you cannot foresee and in those instances (human instances—human element) their semi-autonomous design would return control back to the human.

Wait! What? WTF! ... scratch that! WHAT THE PHUCK!

Conversation replayed on the little black box...

"Don't give control back to me now!"

"But I'm drunk now."

"I'm in the back seat! Never mind what we're doing in the back seat!"

"No no no Siri! Do not return control! Noooo! Oh shit!"

Semi-autonomous designs suddenly make you into a designated driver. Do you have any idea of the responsibility of a designated driver? Where unlike the regular driver, a designated driver has to be ready at a moment's notice, without prior planning to actually drive! If I have to pay attention as alertly as if I was driving, then I may as well be driving... or the human element says I am NOT going to be paying attention and therefore in no position to assume control! Life is not a video game.

No one else sees the insanity of this?

With the craziness of technology and life on Earth nowadays and factoring in the insanity of politics... I'd get off of this planet on an alien spaceship if I had the chance.

"Alien to Mothership, please rendezvous and collect me at specified coordinates. These human MFs are getting reaaaaally crazy! They've gone way past WTF!"

Very late addendum:

It is believed that there is at least one spaceship that crashed on Earth and recovered in Roswell. If that is so, the reason it crashed most assuredly had to be because the moment it entered Earth's atmosphere it had to contend with the human element.

My hilarious niece rang me from the car where she was returning home from visiting her Aunt who has a daughter of similar age riding with. Her cousin was telling her mom, my sister, to relax. My niece says to her Auntie, "one day there'll be driverless cars and you won't have to contend with this mess."

"Driverless cars?! Whose fine idea is that one?! Before they go and do a foolhardy thing like that, they better solve the problem of the GPS trying to route you onto a fricking bridge THAT HASN'T BEEN BUILT YET!"

That's my sister. She's always had the uncanny ability of seeing obstacles before they are built!

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:One problem has been cited of a company wanting to have a design of "semi-autonomous" control. They realize that there are just some variables that you cannot foresee and in those instances (human instances—human element) their semi-autonomous design would return control back to the human.

Wait! What? WTF! ... scratch that! WHAT THE PHUCK!

Conversation replayed on the little black box...

"Don't give control back to me now!"

"But I'm drunk now."

"I'm in the back seat! Never mind what we're doing in the back seat!"

"No no no Siri! Do not return control! Noooo! Oh shit!"

Semi-autonomous designs suddenly make you into a designated driver. Do you have any idea of the responsibility of a designated driver? Where unlike the regular driver, a designated driver has to be ready at a moment's notice, without prior planning to actually drive! If I have to pay attention as alertly as if I was driving, then I may as well be driving... or the human element says I am NOT going to be paying attention and therefore in no position to assume control! Life is not a video game.

No one else sees the insanity of this?

With the craziness of technology and life on Earth nowadays and factoring in the insanity of politics... I'd get off of this planet on an alien spaceship if I had the chance.

"Alien to Mothership, please rendezvous and collect me at specified coordinates. These human MFs are getting reaaaaally crazy! They've gone way past WTF!"

Very late addendum:

It is believed that there is at least one spaceship that crashed on Earth and recovered in Roswell. If that is so, the reason it crashed most assuredly had to be because the moment it entered Earth's atmosphere it had to contend with the human element.

My hilarious niece rang me from the car where she was returning home from visiting her Aunt who has a daughter of similar age riding with. Her cousin was telling her mom, my sister, to relax. My niece says to her Auntie, "one day there'll be driverless cars and you won't have to contend with this mess."

"Driverless cars?! Whose fine idea is that one?! Before they go and do a foolhardy thing like that, they better solve the problem of the GPS trying to route you onto a fricking bridge THAT HASN'T BEEN BUILT YET!"

That's my sister. She's always had the uncanny ability of seeing obstacles before they are built!

https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/man-follow ... olice-say/

Driverless cars will not rely on only GPS. They'll also be using all sorts of sensor systems to monitor the road surface ahead, obstructions, heck - even read signs us humans fail to!

It's simple enough to prevent the accidental backseat driving scenario you postulate, with:
1) Voice command relating to vehicle operations should not register unless a button, ideally on the steering wheel, is pressed(this allows ICE functions ).
2) Seat occupancy sensors
3) Grip sensors on the steering wheel

It should also be possible to monitor intoxication, although I've heard of an urban legend where a drunk caught a racoon in order to provide his car(fitted with a breathalyser) with a sober reading.

New safety technologies always need fine-tuning. Like airbags - the earlier ones were dangerous. They've become much better, though.

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:One problem has been cited of a company wanting to have a design of "semi-autonomous" control. They realize that there are just some variables that you cannot foresee and in those instances (human instances—human element) their semi-autonomous design would return control back to the human.

Wait! What? WTF! ... scratch that! WHAT THE PHUCK!

Conversation replayed on the little black box...

"Don't give control back to me now!"

"But I'm drunk now."

"I'm in the back seat! Never mind what we're doing in the back seat!"

"No no no Siri! Do not return control! Noooo! Oh shit!"

Semi-autonomous designs suddenly make you into a designated driver. Do you have any idea of the responsibility of a designated driver? Where unlike the regular driver, a designated driver has to be ready at a moment's notice, without prior planning to actually drive! If I have to pay attention as alertly as if I was driving, then I may as well be driving... or the human element says I am NOT going to be paying attention and therefore in no position to assume control! Life is not a video game.

No one else sees the insanity of this?

With the craziness of technology and life on Earth nowadays and factoring in the insanity of politics... I'd get off of this planet on an alien spaceship if I had the chance.

"Alien to Mothership, please rendezvous and collect me at specified coordinates. These human MFs are getting reaaaaally crazy! They've gone way past WTF!"

Very late addendum:

It is believed that there is at least one spaceship that crashed on Earth and recovered in Roswell. If that is so, the reason it crashed most assuredly had to be because the moment it entered Earth's atmosphere it had to contend with the human element.

My hilarious niece rang me from the car where she was returning home from visiting her Aunt who has a daughter of similar age riding with. Her cousin was telling her mom, my sister, to relax. My niece says to her Auntie, "one day there'll be driverless cars and you won't have to contend with this mess."

"Driverless cars?! Whose fine idea is that one?! Before they go and do a foolhardy thing like that, they better solve the problem of the GPS trying to route you onto a fricking bridge THAT HASN'T BEEN BUILT YET!"

That's my sister. She's always had the uncanny ability of seeing obstacles before they are built!

munroburton wrote:https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/man-followed-gps-drove-off-disused-bridge-ramp-wife-dies-police-say/

Driverless cars will not rely on only GPS. They'll also be using all sorts of sensor systems to monitor the road surface ahead, obstructions, heck - even read signs us humans fail to!

It's simple enough to prevent the accidental backseat driving scenario you postulate, with:
1) Voice command relating to vehicle operations should not register unless a button, ideally on the steering wheel, is pressed(this allows ICE functions ).
2) Seat occupancy sensors
3) Grip sensors on the steering wheel

It should also be possible to monitor intoxication, although I've heard of an urban legend where a drunk caught a racoon in order to provide his car(fitted with a breathalyser) with a sober reading.

New safety technologies always need fine-tuning. Like airbags - the earlier ones were dangerous. They've become much better, though.

I read this post regarding the link to the accident and immediately rang my sister. Then she insisted we threeway my niece. "See, I told you so!"

My niece is shocked.

Then my sister says...

"Besides, we already have driverless cars. Pay attention the next time you're driving. 1 out of every 5 cars on the road doesn't have a driver. Oh, there's someone sitting at the wheel alright, but I assure you, no one is at home!"