"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

robert132 wrote:I'll bet a dozen donuts that there would be ways designed into these ships for shipyards to open them up, do the work that needs to be done and then close them back up good as new.

You probably won't get anyone to bet against you. Nearly every suggestion in this thread is possible. The arguments against are cost, time, yard availability, and better alternatives.

The argument against nearly every idea isn't "can't" but "why would anyone bother?"

kzt wrote:The odds are that the MA or SLN will somehow obtain plans for the Mk23 and Apollo in the not terribly distant future. Too many people have access to the data, the rewards are too damn high, and many of those people are outside the jurisdiction of Manticore. And the magic of Honorverse production says they can just start cranking them out in volume them from the plans, without any issues with the supply chain etc.

The odds might not be that high. The Alignment never got their hands on a MK41, even though they had three years to work on it during Janacek and Jurgensen's time in charge.

Treecat counterintelligence agents can vet the people with MK23/Apollo access.

munroburton wrote:Treecat counterintelligence agents can vet the people with MK23/Apollo access.

There are almost certainly tens of thousands of people, on Greyson, Beowulf, Manticore and various Andi and Haven planets that have a legitimate need to know. Plus those who get access anyhow. How many skilled counter-intl people who are bonded to a treecat do you think there are?

A third world country can buy the latest Mercedes, but it will take much time to duplicate it. The tools to make tools argument, but also an education issue as well.

Hello everyone

This is my first post ever, and after reading the fate of the original poster i have been a bit hesitant to contribute my two cents. Alas, it looks like it was buggering me enough to risk the potential backlash, since i made a search but im certain i didnt read all that could be read.

I´ve read all Honor books (i should say i have read most of Mr Webers books he) and i´m going to share my perspective on this particular debate.

To the point. I agree that, as SDs, the units captured to the Solarian Navy are obsolete. They can´t be used in main fleet actions, the manpower requirements are too high and moreover, any power in the way to develop a modern navy will not want them. I suppose they could be given to small systems or to some rebel factions against the SL, but firstly i don´t think it would be a good use of resources and secondly and more importantly, i highly doubt the Star Empire would WANT to, since they would be responsible for the actions of those they gave the ships to, and (at least as it is been portrayed in the books, and any rational analysis of it) those factions are out of the Empires capability to control. The consequences of the actions those groups could undertake would spill into the Empire, as it would be directly responsible for facilitating the military hardware. Therefore it would be an action in which the risks fairly outweighs the benefits.

But that doesn´t mean i think the SDs are useless. Something that has been in my mind is that in the Honorverse the tactical situation has been heavily unbalanced by two primary factors: the increased range of the missiles, and the new LACs.

An no one seems to be doing anything to address it. I dont mean by this that tactical doctrine is not being changed to address it. I mean that no one has gone to the drawing board looking for a way to compensate, or mitigate, this developments.

Its something that (did i say it before?) bugs me because i´m a historian with an interest in military history. Usually you can see fairly clearly in David Weber´s works the axioms that have guided the evolution of military techonology, doctrine, and thinking. But in this case the closest is Grayson´s superiority fighter.

My speculation is as follows. Manticore has more than 100 obsolete Solarian SDs. It doesn´t need those SDs. But if any threat is going to surface against the RMN is gonna be by developments in those 2 key areas.

Why not repurpose those ships? More specifically, why not repurpose them into AA SDs? They wouldn´t need as many lasers, or grasers, or as many missile ports. Moreover, not all their equipment needs to be discarded. They have autocannons. In modern combat, or fleet actions, they´re fairly obsolete.

But what the fleets are facing now are walls of missiles designed to overcome defenses. How hard can it be to put a proximity detonator into the autocannons projectile? By itself, it wouldnt look like much. But remember, autocannons projectiles do not need fuel, and without anything to make them lose inertia, they can be send to intercept enemy missiles way further out than any other weapon avalaible to the RMN. In fact, i can´t come out with a phisical reason why they coudn´t be fired as soon as the enemy launch trajectories are plotted. At those speeds, the impact of a small piece of shrapnell could well destroy or neutralize a missile. Another advantage is that the projectile detonation would send shrapnell in 360º, making evasive actions way more difficult. Now if you expand the example from 1 autocannon to 1 refurbished SD crammed with autocannons and cluster lasers, we would have a wall of flak fire detonating all over the incoming missles. If you expand that example not to 1 ship, but to divisions or squadrons, with Keyhole II platforms, you would have ensured the superiority of the RMN in any missile engagement (even more, i mean).

And they would be ideal. Leaving them some energy armament and some missile ports, if they can be make capable of firing the Mark 16 or 23 they would still outrange anything else. They would be ideal for system defense and escort duty, perfectly capable of engaging anything below their weight or even at their weight since they would not only outrange the enemy but probably would hardly be touched by it unless outnumbered. And they would be ideal as AA in fleet actions, against LACs and missiles, perfectly suited to accompany the LAC Carriers.

The only limitation i see to them is the ammunition, but with all the space left by the removed missiles they should get more than enough. And almost any half industrialized planet could make the ammunition.

How difficult could it be and how much time would it take? As i see it, with the SE needing to rebuild all their shipbuilding facilities, anything deployable in 3-9 months would be a godsend. The ships are space worthy, and the tech is there. Automation and integration of systems, specially the most advanced ones like Keyhole, would be the handicap.

But even if they couldnt be make up totally to Manticoran standards from the start, they would still be damn usefull, and even in the system defence capability would liberate other forces.

So after this long dissertation that i hope didnt put anyone to sleep... as SDs they are a waste... in the actual tactical role of modern SDs. As a new role, they wouldn´t be.

My opinion ;=) always happy to read the forums.

robert132 wrote:I do suspect that taking an Honorverse warship (BC or DN for example) through a modification / rebuilding process isn't quite as difficult as some here suggest. You design and build warships with the understanding that they are going to get shot up, or maybe get old enough they need updating.

The side armor of an Honorverse warship is incredibly thick and tough, but the keels and topsides that are covered by the invulnerable Wedge aren't nearly so much.

I'll bet a dozen donuts that there would be ways designed into these ships for shipyards to open them up, do the work that needs to be done and then close them back up good as new. We overhaul and modify deep diving nuclear submarines today; open the pressure hulls, play around with the innards of the beasts and then seal them back up good as new, same principal.

Shall I PM you my address to send those donuts? Plain cake (old fashioned) please - I detest glazed or any other covered/filled donut.

The strongest armor is that which is a single piece, provided there are no moving parts. Gas welding bottles (oxy-acetylene, etc.) are single-piece bottles, with a valve at one end. These are easy to make and hold thousands of PSI with no problems. Try doing that with a sub. Subs are made of several sections that are welded together. Each of those welds is a weak point. Same with modern warships. No one currently has the ability to make single-piece armored hulls for ships or subs beyond a certain size.

Honorverse ships are built differently. The framework and internals are built/assembled in place, then the hull is grown through nanotech in place around it - kind of like 3D printing - locking everything in place. The framework is buried in the hull armor like rebar in reinforced concrete.

In other words, the hull/armor is a single-piece unit, with no weak points/welds/rivets/hot glue/scotch tape holding it together. The only weak points are necessary places, such as weapons ports, docking ports, access hatches for supplies and personnel, etc.

SD armor is designed to withstand multi-gigawatt (or whatever - someone else has run the numbers), multi-meter wide graser and x-ray laser hits. Sure, there's damage, but it's minimized through the multilayered armor and internal cofferdamming - again, all grown in place in one piece.* Do you honestly think that something more or less handheld is going to go through that easily?

I'd much rather have the strongest possible armor surrounding my ship, and have it be a pain in the ass to repair, than to have easily accessible weak points in it to make the yard dogs' lives easier. I'm pretty sure that's how all warships in the Honorverse are made, except possibly some low-tech places - possibly pre-alliance (or maybe pre-rediscovery) Grayson, maybe?

*Edit to add: It takes hundreds of laserhead hits to mission-kill/destroy modern RMN and Havenite SDs. Each hit, taken on it's own, is not all that big a deal, but hundreds over a few seconds is where the real damage comes in. OTOH, Solly SDs aren't as well armored, so fewer hits can do the same or more damage. The armor also isn't designed to stand up against the weapons being used, whereas both the RMN and Haven, as well as the Graysons, design their ships to stand up to THEIR OWN weapons hits.

kzt wrote:

Sigs wrote:So? Remind me again how getting missiles with the same range that you already have changes anything? When the GA can attack you from 15,20,30,40 million km this doesn't change anything. If they show up at a GA system with pods in tow and the GA picket starts sniping at them from 40 million km by the time they get to 9 million the only thing they have coming at them is life pods. Remind me how much good it did for 400+ SD's to fire off 50,000 + missiles they couldn't control at an enemy with a fraction of their number?

My base assumption is that you replied to is that they are building Apollo Mk23s using stolen plans from either a sympathizer on Beowulf or a greedy guy in the RHN or IAN. So can you explain why you think they won't be effective at long range?

My assumption is that getting just the missiles does not give them any added advantage over their current munitions. They can still launch their missiles at long range as long as they have a ballistic phase in between, so what does a missile with three stages give them that a missile with two stages doesn't?

If the SLN does not have the ability to 1)utilize the full range of the missiles and 2)does not have the ability to control as many missiles as the GA and 3)does not have the ability to survive long enough to fire off those missiles what does the added range they cannot take advantage give them?

Talkregh wrote:Hello everyone

This is my first post ever, and after reading the fate of the original poster i have been a bit hesitant to contribute my two cents. Alas, it looks like it was buggering me enough to risk the potential backlash, since i made a search but im certain i didnt read all that could be read.

I´ve read all Honor books (i should say i have read most of Mr Webers books he) and i´m going to share my perspective on this particular debate.

To the point. I agree that, as SDs, the units captured to the Solarian Navy are obsolete. They can´t be used in main fleet actions, the manpower requirements are too high and moreover, any power in the way to develop a modern navy will not want them. I suppose they could be given to small systems or to some rebel factions against the SL, but firstly i don´t think it would be a good use of resources and secondly and more importantly, i highly doubt the Star Empire would WANT to, since they would be responsible for the actions of those they gave the ships to, and (at least as it is been portrayed in the books, and any rational analysis of it) those factions are out of the Empires capability to control. The consequences of the actions those groups could undertake would spill into the Empire, as it would be directly responsible for facilitating the military hardware. Therefore it would be an action in which the risks fairly outweighs the benefits.

But that doesn´t mean i think the SDs are useless. Something that has been in my mind is that in the Honorverse the tactical situation has been heavily unbalanced by two primary factors: the increased range of the missiles, and the new LACs.

An no one seems to be doing anything to address it. I dont mean by this that tactical doctrine is not being changed to address it. I mean that no one has gone to the drawing board looking for a way to compensate, or mitigate, this developments.

Its something that (did i say it before?) bugs me because i´m a historian with an interest in military history. Usually you can see fairly clearly in David Weber´s works the axioms that have guided the evolution of military techonology, doctrine, and thinking. But in this case the closest is Grayson´s superiority fighter.

My speculation is as follows. Manticore has more than 100 obsolete Solarian SDs. It doesn´t need those SDs. But if any threat is going to surface against the RMN is gonna be by developments in those 2 key areas.

Why not repurpose those ships? More specifically, why not repurpose them into AA SDs? They wouldn´t need as many lasers, or grasers, or as many missile ports. Moreover, not all their equipment needs to be discarded. They have autocannons. In modern combat, or fleet actions, they´re fairly obsolete.

But what the fleets are facing now are walls of missiles designed to overcome defenses. How hard can it be to put a proximity detonator into the autocannons projectile? By itself, it wouldnt look like much. But remember, autocannons projectiles do not need fuel, and without anything to make them lose inertia, they can be send to intercept enemy missiles way further out than any other weapon avalaible to the RMN. In fact, i can´t come out with a phisical reason why they coudn´t be fired as soon as the enemy launch trajectories are plotted. At those speeds, the impact of a small piece of shrapnell could well destroy or neutralize a missile. Another advantage is that the projectile detonation would send shrapnell in 360º, making evasive actions way more difficult. Now if you expand the example from 1 autocannon to 1 refurbished SD crammed with autocannons and cluster lasers, we would have a wall of flak fire detonating all over the incoming missles. If you expand that example not to 1 ship, but to divisions or squadrons, with Keyhole II platforms, you would have ensured the superiority of the RMN in any missile engagement (even more, i mean).

And they would be ideal. Leaving them some energy armament and some missile ports, if they can be make capable of firing the Mark 16 or 23 they would still outrange anything else. They would be ideal for system defense and escort duty, perfectly capable of engaging anything below their weight or even at their weight since they would not only outrange the enemy but probably would hardly be touched by it unless outnumbered. And they would be ideal as AA in fleet actions, against LACs and missiles, perfectly suited to accompany the LAC Carriers.

The only limitation i see to them is the ammunition, but with all the space left by the removed missiles they should get more than enough. And almost any half industrialized planet could make the ammunition.

How difficult could it be and how much time would it take? As i see it, with the SE needing to rebuild all their shipbuilding facilities, anything deployable in 3-9 months would be a godsend. The ships are space worthy, and the tech is there. Automation and integration of systems, specially the most advanced ones like Keyhole, would be the handicap.

But even if they couldnt be make up totally to Manticoran standards from the start, they would still be damn usefull, and even in the system defence capability would liberate other forces.

So after this long dissertation that i hope didnt put anyone to sleep... as SDs they are a waste... in the actual tactical role of modern SDs. As a new role, they wouldn´t be.

My opinion ;=) always happy to read the forums.

The problem with that is that missiles can (and DO) maneuver, while autocannon shells cannot. They are purely ballistic Something like that MIGHT work the first time (personally, I doubt it), but as we saw with the Triple Ripple, it will be countered easily enough after the first use or two of it.

Frankly, the only time during a missile attack that autocannon would be useful is in the last few seconds before the nuke in the missiles lit off to activate the laserheads. That is the point where a missile's path is easily predictable, since it needs to settle down to release the laserheads. However, by that point, it's a bit too late to be firing autocannon.

The way I see it as well, is that if autocannon could be that effective, then why aren't the RMN, RHN, GSN, or any other "modern" navy still using them? The only reason the sollies still use them is because they just haven't gotten around to updating the ships that are a couple hundred years old. The fact that even the sollies are trying to upgrade them also tells me that as behind the times as they are, even THEY understand that autocannon aren't really worth keeping around.

Edit to add: Shrapnel doesn't really give ANY advantage, as missiles are shielded above and below with wedges. Now, I suppose you could make an argument for directional shrapnel, such as that used in a Sidewinder missile, but again, there's a very narrow window through which it needs to go, and even the minutest jog on the part of the missile will generate a miss. Basically, what you're proposing is the "throw a bunch of ball bearings into the path of the missiles" idea of anti-missile warfare. Doesn't work that way. Space is huge, and you'd need a shit-ton of ball bearings/shrapnel to even get a single hit, let alone a way of taking out many missiles.

MaxxQ wrote:Basically, what you're proposing is the "throw a bunch of ball bearings into the path of the missiles" idea of anti-missile warfare. Doesn't work that way. Space is huge, and you'd need a shit-ton of ball bearings/shrapnel to even get a single hit, let alone a way of taking out many missiles.

There is also the minor detail that auto-cannon rounds don't self-destruct if they miss. That means that auto-cannon spread "hazards to navigation" throughout the volume of a battle with no way to clean things up.

Talkregh wrote:Something that has been in my mind is that in the Honorverse the tactical situation has been heavily unbalanced by two primary factors: the increased range of the missiles, and the new LACs.

An no one seems to be doing anything to address it. I dont mean by this that tactical doctrine is not being changed to address it. I mean that no one has gone to the drawing board looking for a way to compensate, or mitigate, this developments.

Its something that (did i say it before?) bugs me because i´m a historian with an interest in military history. Usually you can see fairly clearly in David Weber´s works the axioms that have guided the evolution of military techonology, doctrine, and thinking. But in this case the closest is Grayson´s superiority fighter.

Edit: First I forgot to say - welcome to the forums (or at least welcome to posting here). Please have a virtual beverage of your choice on me. And I hope the following doesn't discourage you from participating here.


I think you're selling the innovations short. Off the top of my head the anti-missile anti-LAC tech improvements (not just tactical doctrine) since Buttercup unleashed them are:
1) GSN Katana space superiority LAC (which you mentioned)
2) RMN Mk30 130,000gees CMs (Battle of Sidemore) improved enagement range against missiles
3) RMN Mk31 130,00o gees for an extra 15 seconds CMs even more improved engagent range (3+ million km vs ~1.5 million km with older CMs)
4) Keyhole - allowing vastly increased numbers of CM salvos (11 or so vs 3-4) (Oh and from both broadsides at once, doubling the anti-missile density per salvo)
5) The Viper anti-LAC missile (used by the aforementioned Katana)
6) Adapting CM launchers of modern units from DDs - SD(P)s to also fire the Viper giving them a devistating anti-LAC capability
6) Probably should throw in Bow/Stern walls making it even harder for missiles to get a clean shot at the ships
7) Improved free flying decoys (Lorelie)
8) RHN Triple-Ripple missiles (yes a tactical invocation, but one enabled by the specially designed missile warheads)
9) RHN LACs - designed primarily to blunt the offensive use of RMN/GSN LACs.

And of course newer designs are being build with greater numbers of point defense mountings, and more capable ones.


So people have already put in a lot of work blunting the LAC and missile storm threats. Can they do more, certainly. And Apollo does tilt the balance back towards offense for the moment after Keyhole had given a massive boost to defense.

So I don't see where the GA has a need for desperate stop-gap measures to fend off missile swarms or LAC strikes. (Leaving aside that the SLN doesn't appear to have any way to use LACs offensively - nor are they likely to have LACs capable of threatening even old-style units except in vast numbers).
So the need for an AA escort seems lacking - at least for the good guys. Now maybe the League will try such a bodge - I'd bet against it working but I could see them desperate enough to try...