Detweiler and Sons

kzt wrote: People are more ingenious than you give them credit for.

Try idiot-proofing anything, something. next thing you see is the idiot proving you ... can't.

And yes there is the entire Shi'ite, Sunni divide in Islam, yet the Shi'ites have no problem accepting the relative of Mohammed being their supreme religious leader. and we're, what,1500 years after the death of The Prophet.

And for all anyone but the Detweilers know, the Detweilers died with Leonard (or soon after). A deliberate deception aimed specifically at Beowulf.

WeirdlyWired wrote:
...

And for all anyone but the Detweilers know, the Detweilers died with Leonard (or soon after). A deliberate deception aimed specifically at Beowulf.

There are many Detweilers and non-Detweilers at the centre of the onion who know quite well the Detweilers are alive and well. Some even come from lines who are so aggressive the LRPB has considered culling the whole line (Bardasinos, I think it was). Yet these individuals and lines meekly fall into line regardless of any opening that comes along to gain power for themselves.

I would also suggest the existence of lines in the first place is an open invite to the development of clan-like structures and to competition between clans. As written, everyone seems to just agree that each line has its place. I don't see it happening if they have retained any humanity at all. Humans compete socially and by groups. Always have, always will until we become something else entirely.

kzt wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:Different fans have different things about the Honorverse tech background which they find hard to accept. This is one of mine.

From 2000 fatality report
Accidental suffocation and strangulation in bed. 327
Drowning and submersion while in or falling into bath-tub 341
Fall on same level from slipping, tripping and stumbling 565
Other fall on same level 1,885
Fall involving bed, chair, other furniture. 650

People are more ingenious than you give them credit for.

Of course. Which is why you remove the human element as much as possible.

That's what the whole self-driving car thing we're currently looking at is about: not having an idiot at the controls. In 20 years or so (I'm somewhat of a pessimist) a new car will not have operator controls at all. You'll get in, buckle up the belts and tell the car where you want to go. It will get you there. And it won't move until you've buckled up the seat belts: the interior sensors will insure that.

And if some idiot hot-wires around it, the jail time for getting into an accident, plus the costs of the civil damages will bankrupt them to where they can barely afford to walk.

Of course. Which is why you remove the human element as much as possible.

That's what the whole self-driving car thing we're currently looking at is about: not having an idiot at the controls. ...

And if some idiot hot-wires around it, the jail time for getting into an accident, plus the costs of the civil damages will bankrupt them to where they can barely afford to walk.[/quote]

Yet, the aircar accident that killed the Havenite Secretary of State was caused by a drunk driver who was operating on manual control. Grosclaude flew into a canyon wall in manual control (as dictated by nano-assassins.)

Not to mention that there is always a plausible malfunction or exploding fuel cell that can be classed as "an aircar accident" that doesn't require human intervention.

Also, for Houdini the Malign actually got creative and did away with culls and such with just about anything except "aircar accidents" because they couldn't explain a sudden increase in accidents as large as they needed.

kzt wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:Different fans have different things about the Honorverse tech background which they find hard to accept. This is one of mine.

From 2000 fatality report
Accidental suffocation and strangulation in bed. 327
Drowning and submersion while in or falling into bath-tub 341
Fall on same level from slipping, tripping and stumbling 565
Other fall on same level 1,885
Fall involving bed, chair, other furniture. 650

People are more ingenious than you give them credit for.

JohnRoth wrote:Of course. Which is why you remove the human element as much as possible.

That's what the whole self-driving car thing we're currently looking at is about: not having an idiot at the controls. In 20 years or so (I'm somewhat of a pessimist) a new car will not have operator controls at all. You'll get in, buckle up the belts and tell the car where you want to go. It will get you there. And it won't move until you've buckled up the seat belts: the interior sensors will insure that.

And if some idiot hot-wires around it, the jail time for getting into an accident, plus the costs of the civil damages will bankrupt them to where they can barely afford to walk.

You do not fully comprehend the human element. You simply cannot remove the human element from... humans. It is the human part of the element. It is who we are. We are NOT machines.

In your scenario, there must be a way for someone inside the vehicle to obtain manual control. In case of malfunction or malfeasance. Or any of a number of other "human" or natural factors. And therein lies the loophole. People are not going to want to be dictated by that level of automation or inconvenience.

Scenario: You're in a driverless vehicle that is traveling on the highway. You are behind a logging truck and you see that the logs are about to be dislodged. You have control of the car and you can avert the accident. A driverless car cannot see that the logs are about to fall off of the truck ahead and kill you. Thus, killing you.

Remove the human element as much as possible.

How do you do that on a playing field where you cannot remove all of the humans, exactly? How much is possible? How much is probable? How much is enough? How much is too much? Which literally amounts to attempting to remove the human element by replacing it with a large, idiotic dose of... the "human element."

How exactly does one go about removing the human element on a planet with humans? Removing the human element in a factory and replacing them with machinery is fine, when the only variables are finite. Removing the human element by removing the humans inside of the vehicles on the highway where the variables are in-finite is ridiculous. Humans and life simply do not fit the programming constructs.

You simply cannot remove the human element from the highways unless you remove all of the humans. Even then, the human element will still exist.

We've talked about this in another thread and quite frankly the notion appalls me. Uber is investing the better part of $800 M into driverless cars. Unbelievable. Just as I foresaw the many deaths from airbags, I see it from driverless cars. Remember, you heard it from me first.

My Driver's Ed. teacher tried to teach us the human element decades ago. "As far as your life is concerned, it doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong. Dead right or dead wrong, you are still dead. You have to drive for the other idiot in the other car as well."

Life is full of the human element. The only way to completely remove the human element on the planet is to die, or leave the planet. Except that the human element will inherit space travel as soon as humans do.

Greentea wrote:There is nothing more damaging to a family than the loss of the undisputed matriarch or patriarch. Ugly things tend to happen, like factions forming in the various family branches, inheritance disputes, feuds. Even when the loss does not have any violent consequences, things are just different, everything seems wrong, and the new leadership will have some hiccups.

My own family had something like this happen when my grandmother died in 2001. Since her death, there have been no major feuds, but two of my uncles had their marriages fall apart one of which also put my aunt and her husband right in the middle of it (basically, Jane Jones married John Smith and Jack Jones married Jill Smith, then Jack and Jill had an ugly divorce), and a lot of other minor things that wouldn't have happened while she was alive to keep a lid on things.

The whole onion is going to be dangerously weakened while they are on the run. If their disappearing act is successful they may be able to stabilize things before the GA catches up to them, but they are in for a rough couple of years in which lying low is the best strategy.

JohnRoth wrote:The MAlign has been doing this for 600 years. In the early years there may have been three turnovers a century, in the later years, with life extension and recently prolong, maybe two. That's 15 turnovers.

Not even close to an accurate comparison. How many times were there a changing of the guard where the guard had six identical clones? As I said, the potential for a power struggle exists infinitely greater within the midst of [Albrecht's identical clones]. Each of whom are human. As I said, the decision to clone himself may very well turn out to be the gunpowder in Detweiler's own version of being "Hoist by his own petard."

JohnRoth wrote:As another poster said, if there was any significant factional infighting on a turnover, the whole thing would have blown apart by this time.

One of the things that keeps it together is that most of the Onion doesn't know that there's been a turnover at all.

"Meet the new Alpha One, the same as the old Alpha One."

"Huh? there's a new Alpha One? Can't tell it by me."

Again, as I said, the power struggle exists inside of the Detweiler construct, not the flunkies on the outside. If Hitler had 6 clones, do you think the power struggle would exist between the clones or the other flunkies—the generals, lieutenants, captains...?

JohnRoth wrote:Your grandmother probably didn't settle family disputes by supplying one or both disputants with a set of concrete overshoes and dropping them in a convenient river. That's essentially what the MAlign does with people whose rivalries would tend to pose a risk to the MAlign's stability.

Her grandmother didn't but the mob did. The mob was worse, it shot people down in the street in broad daylight, cops too. Still didn't prevent a power struggle.

Hitler's regime did as well. It exterminated entire families if you got out of line. Didn't prevent an attempt on his life either.

Where the human element gains strength is when your life is threatened. If you think that the present course of action of Alpha One will be fatal to your existence, you rebel. The most telling ingredient of the human element is the human will to survive—basic instinct.

"Daddy was killed! We shall attack the entire GA now!," says Alpha One.

"Are you fucking crazy!" says, not asks, Alpha Two. Three. Four.. and Five.

"Alpha One, my ass. That SOB isn't fit to Lord over a bunch of lab rats. Wait, we are lab rats. Be that as it may, that SOB has to go. Daddy should have picked me anyways!"

cthia wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:The MAlign has been doing this for 600 years. In the early years there may have been three turnovers a century, in the later years, with life extension and recently prolong, maybe two. That's 15 turnovers.

Not even close to an accurate comparison. How many times were there a changing of the guard where the guard had six identical clones? As I said, the potential for a power struggle exists infinitely greater within the midst of [Albrecht's identical clones]. Each of whom are human. As I said, the decision to clone himself may very well turn out to be the gunpowder in Detweiler's own version of being "Hoist by his own petard."

Maybe - but these aren't the more fantastic sci-fi clones where they spring to live already mature and with all their progenitor's memories and traits. They only share 100% of his DNA, but their rearing and life experiences are different.

Now maybe there's enough genetic component in his megalomania that they do fall to squabbling over who has control or what the correct path forward should be. But that's not a given like it might be if you somehow had 6 complete copies of Albrecht spring into existence just before his death.
He and his wife have had decades to mold each of the (clone) kids into their own specialization or niche and get them accustomed to the idea of the order of succession.


Could it all still fall apart? Sure. But I don't think having identical genetics (but totally separate memories and somewhat different life experiences) guarantees that.

JohnRoth wrote:Of course. Which is why you remove the human element as much as possible.

That's what the whole self-driving car thing we're currently looking at is about: not having an idiot at the controls. ...

And if some idiot hot-wires around it, the jail time for getting into an accident, plus the costs of the civil damages will bankrupt them to where they can barely afford to walk.

Weird Harold wrote:Yet, the aircar accident that killed the Havenite Secretary of State was caused by a drunk driver who was operating on manual control. Grosclaude flew into a canyon wall in manual control (as dictated by nano-assassins.)

Not to mention that there is always a plausible malfunction or exploding fuel cell that can be classed as "an aircar accident" that doesn't require human intervention.

Also, for Houdini the Malign actually got creative and did away with culls and such with just about anything except "aircar accidents" because they couldn't explain a sudden increase in accidents as large as they needed.

Before you go on, you might want to read this, which is a summary of where the self-driving car technology is at present. http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/12/two ... ving-cars/

Now that you're back, there are a couple of points to ponder. The first is the idea that the vendors are going to do their own auto insurance, rather than depending on the insurance industry.

Money is a great motivator. This gives them a major incentive to eliminate all those miscellaneous problems that might cause accidents from equipment failure.

Larry Niven wrote a short story about this, titled "Safe at Any Speed." It might be worth a reread if you can find it.

I'm assuming that someone tampered with Grossclaude's car. Haven's system wasn't up to standard because of the years of malign neglect under the Legislaturalists. On Mesa, the MAlign might have encouraged sub-standard control just so they could have aircar accidents to eliminate inconvenient people. Also consider the seccies, who probably don't have a lot of cars that are really well maintained.

The whole aircar scenario, like the computer security scenairo and a number of others, is 1990 thinking, not 2016 thinking. That's when the series planning happened.

cthia wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:The MAlign has been doing this for 600 years. In the early years there may have been three turnovers a century, in the later years, with life extension and recently prolong, maybe two. That's 15 turnovers.

Not even close to an accurate comparison. How many times were there a changing of the guard where the guard had six identical clones? As I said, the potential for a power struggle exists infinitely greater within the midst of [Albrecht's identical clones]. Each of whom are human. As I said, the decision to clone himself may very well turn out to be the gunpowder in Detweiler's own version of being "Hoist by his own petard."

Jonathan_S wrote:Maybe - but these aren't the more fantastic sci-fi clones where they spring to live already mature and with all their progenitor's memories and traits. They only share 100% of his DNA, but their rearing and life experiences are different.

Exactly! That is one factor that is detrimental to the entire plan. They do not share Detweiler's memories and emotional scar tissue—which are attached to and fuels his emotional baggage of vengeance. They don't share that. Certainly not on the same personal level. And they aren't robots that can be programmed. Six perfectly identical clones—who aren't the more fantastic sci-fi clones—that are supposed to think, act and emotionally bleed like daddy and who are supposed to magically inherit what daddy cares about to the tune of pledging their entire lives to serve daddy's megalomaniacal agenda.

It is like my black friends who are upset with their younger generation because they do not share the same emotional scar tissue and indoctrination against racism and slavery. Black history can teach them the history but it cannot transplant the experiences or beget the indoctrination. That is not to say that they condone racism, but they are not nearly as amped up about it at the level of the preceding generations. And the waters become more dilute with each passing generation. Regardless of history books and teachings. Only personal experience can imprint that level of indoctrination. Same with my own race of Native Americans. Pow Wows are to better ensure that the history, the tradition and the Native American essence is remembered and passed on. It cannot guarantee it.

Witnessing the appalling deeds of cops across the country in recent years in the media and possibly being a victim themselves will better the chances of indoctrination from common ground but still not guarantee it. The circumstances are totally different, and that is with the new generation of blacks living amongst the society with the racism and ingesting the media. Detweiler's sons are sheltered.

One old adage will always ring true. Racism is taught not inherited. And where practiced, the teachings do no not always stick. Which is why some daughters and sons who were drilled to be bigots against a particular race still marries one, to the complete dismay of their parents.

Jonathan_S wrote:Now maybe there's enough genetic component in his megalomania that they do fall to squabbling over who has control or what the correct path forward should be. But that's not a given like it might be if you somehow had 6 complete copies of Albrecht spring into existence just before his death.
He and his wife have had decades to mold each of the (clone) kids into their own specialization or niche and get them accustomed to the idea of the order of succession.


Could it all still fall apart? Sure. But I don't think having identical genetics (but totally separate memories and somewhat different life experiences) guarantees that.

Of course the power struggles aren't a given, per se. I only feel that amongst the sons lies the most probable area of contention. Moreover, the opposite of that thought is what fuels my thinking that there'll be friction—because by the same token, it also isn't a guarantee that all six clones will, pardon the pun, fall in line.

It isn't just the DNA that could cause the sons to rock the boat. It is the entire indoctrination. And the sense of entitlement that each of them must feel associated with the fact that "I AM A DETWEILER!" As sure as the entitlement that Donald Trumps offspring feels.

The fact that each son has a different specialization only tells me that they, essentially, attended a different school. Each are still daddy's little Hitler after matriculation. They are raised to be a Detweiler, not raised to be subservient—to anyone but daddy. They were open to daddy's plan because daddy was alive and it pleased him. They have no one to please now but themselves. They are going to have to take orders from each other. I can't see that. Rubs me the wrong way—as I think it will, sooner than later, rub them as well.

Nothing is guaranteed—especially conformity.

One bad apple can spoil the whole bunch and Detweiler has half a dozen apples of his eye. Only one of them has to have a worm inside.

Probably the youngest child, who is supposed to be the favorite anyways, yet he is only the youngest by alphabet. Another thing that haunts me is the human element of the sons own interaction with each other. Siblings know who amongst them is the overall brightest. And it doesn't necessarily follow alphabetical order.

Ivana Trump is obviously Donald's favorite. I wonder how the rest feel about that.

All, IMHO, of course.

JohnRoth wrote:Before you go on, you might want to read this, which is a summary of where the self-driving car technology is at present. http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/12/two ... ving-cars/

...

Totally irrelevant to Honorverse air-car traffic control.

JohnRoth wrote:I'm assuming that someone tampered with Grossclaude's car.

Actually they tampered with Grossclaude. It was one of the on-screen uses of MAlign nano-assassin tech.