Battles, land and sea

I thought it would be interesting to discuss the battles in AtSoT perhaps in a bit more detail. So I'm going to share my impressions generally and then perhaps we can narrow down on something a bit more specific and interesting.

There are a number of factors that lead to the result we see at the end of the book.

First we must name the tech advantage that has been present throughout the series. That starts off right away in OAR and continues throughout with the church experiencing a surprise and then doing something to compensate for the surprise only to be faced with a new surprise. By the end the church is faced with something it cannot match, whether the Manthyrs, the balloons, or the superior power of the new explosives used in the alliances shells. Add into that the superior range of allied artillery which is now breech loading, repeating rifles and revolvers along with better mines and COGA forces face a force imbalance which they cannot match by sheer numbers alone. Ironclads and steamships wind up sweeping the Dohlaran navy from the seas.

Closely related to this is the attitude toward innovation. Charis has institutionalized innovation whereas when the church innovates it is because they have been dragged along kicking and screaming. Guess who wins...

The second factor worthy of mention although it is far from the battlefield is productivity. Charis has a huge head start and as its factories disperse and multiply, the wartime supplies that she can supply the front have been transformed from a trickle to a huge river that the church cannot match no matter how many more people and potential resources were under her control.

Moving closer to the front, one has to recognize the high quality of the allied officer corps especially on the general levels. The Royal Chisholmian Army folded into the Imperial Charisian Army, bringing with it tough minded flexibility and professionalism that the church is sorely missing until Rainbow Waters and his lieutenants appear with the Mighty Host. One must provide honorable mention to the Dohlarans with Ahlverez, Rychtar and it people along with Thirsk and his admirals on the naval side.

For the two most interesting battles on land, I select Rychtyr's fighting retreat from Hanth which seems to me to be a textbook case of getting the most use out of meager resourses. Unlike previous encounters, the Royal Dohlaran Army is still intact and fighting right up to the cease fire forced by the navy trashing the Gorath industrial front. The other land battle of note for me was when the AOG first encounters the balloons and starts trying to compensate for its exposed position.

At sea as on land, things took on an aura of inevitability which I suppose is to be expected for the concluding book of the story arc. But I chose the Cities assault on Rhaigair and the Cities plus the Gylymn Manthyr's assault on Gorath Both explored the limitation of the Cities class when encountering the best the other side had to offer. The loss of Eraystor and Riverbend was tragic, but it did demonstrate that there is no such thing as invincibility. Note to Cities captains; 12 inch Dohlaran ordinance will penetrate your armor even though it was the rockets that did the real damage. We also observe that even though the Manthyr is the most powerful ship in the world, Sarmouth is very much aware of her vulnerability to mines. His solution for sweeping the mines was creative, but not completely foolproof.

Enough rambling for now. Someone elses turn.

Don

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All right, I'll delurk and ramble ignorantly in return.

(1) I'd add to your list the non-military inventions that allowed better handling of logistics, better coordination of armies, and faster training in new, more flexible military strategies such as squad-level independence. I am thinking specifically of things such as the abacus, the typewriter (mentioned in ATSOT), and the data base (more or less what the College's manuscripts represent). I know from recently reading Chernow's biography of Hamilton just how important clear orders based on a full knowledge of logistics was to the American victory in the Revolutionary War, as well as to Grant's success in the Civil War. I am reading between the lines here, as DW rightly focuses on the effects of these on the more visible, "in the moment" factors you list.

(2) I can't help using this list to speculate on further developments in the upcoming years before the Proscriptions war. Obviously, trains are on the list. I still think that hydraulic computing should be added -- how that is to be downsized to the military equivalent of a handheld I have no idea. Tanks and machine guns are clearly in the works. I continue to hope for steam autos.

Just how far can they get with air travel? Dirigibles would seem likely, although their military applications in such areas as bombing would seem limited. Gliders are straightforward, and I suppose could be launched from dirigibles to provide the equivalent of behind-the-lines parachutists. I have no idea about heavier-than-air steam aircraft.

I question whether the ban on electricity is absolute -- after all, the orbiting platform must distinguish between lightning and human activity. I am thinking of running telegraph lines between the continents on the ocean floor. It's certainly testable the same way Merlin tested steam, it's more difficult to detect electrical activity under the sea, use of electricity is relatively minimal, and bombardment would (with care in the location of lines) not kill humans. This would be far superior to semaphore-based communications between, say, Siddermark and Charis.

I see no reason why further development of drugs wouldn't be possible. Likewise, submarines (after all, Fulton developed one before the first practical application of electricity).

I suspect that (although DW doesn't mention it) the first year after the end of fighting is going to be hard economically, especially on the main continents. That will mean, with the new availability of guns from returning veterans, an increase in crime, and hence the advent of police forces using autos (not to mention firefighters ditto). From the Honorverse, we see that DW's preference for investment in the defeated will allow some equivalent of the Marshall Plan, but it's still going to be a tough slog for a couple of years, and Siddermarkian/Border loyalists as well as the serf armies are going to be causes of instability for a while.

Pursuing one of your thoughts a little further, a good argument can be made for Rychtair being the best land-force commander on either side. The Allies exploited capabilities the other side didn't know they had, or understood very imperfectly. Brilliantly, sometimes - Green Valley's little Winter War is a marvel - and always intelligently and effectively, but they repeatedly came at their enemies from places the Temple Boys didn't know to look at. Rychtair's opponents didn't even need to read his playbook over his shoulder, they knew perfectly well what had to be in it, but they still had to beat him the old-fashioned way. And he nearly fought them to a draw the old-fashioned way, too, using inferior forces, inferior equipment or both. True, they didn't turn the very latest bells and whistles loose on him, but I have to wonder how much they'd have helped.

n7axw wrote:I thought it would be interesting to discuss the battles in AtSoT perhaps in a bit more detail. So I'm going to share my impressions generally and then perhaps we can narrow down on something a bit more specific and interesting.

There are a number of factors that lead to the result we see at the end of the book.

First we must name the tech advantage that has been present throughout the series. That starts off right away in OAR and continues throughout with the church experiencing a surprise and then doing something to compensate for the surprise only to be faced with a new surprise. By the end the church is faced with something it cannot match, whether the Manthyrs, the balloons, or the superior power of the new explosives used in the alliances shells. Add into that the superior range of allied artillery which is now breech loading, repeating rifles and revolvers along with better mines and COGA forces face a force imbalance which they cannot match by sheer numbers alone. Ironclads and steamships wind up sweeping the Dohlaran navy from the seas.

Closely related to this is the attitude toward innovation. Charis has institutionalized innovation whereas when the church innovates it is because they have been dragged along kicking and screaming. Guess who wins...

The second factor worthy of mention although it is far from the battlefield is productivity. Charis has a huge head start and as its factories disperse and multiply, the wartime supplies that she can supply the front have been transformed from a trickle to a huge river that the church cannot match no matter how many more people and potential resources were under her control.

Moving closer to the front, one has to recognize the high quality of the allied officer corps especially on the general levels. The Royal Chisholmian Army folded into the Imperial Charisian Army, bringing with it tough minded flexibility and professionalism that the church is sorely missing until Rainbow Waters and his lieutenants appear with the Mighty Host. One must provide honorable mention to the Dohlarans with Ahlverez, Rychtar and it people along with Thirsk and his admirals on the naval side.

For the two most interesting battles on land, I select Rychtyr's fighting retreat from Hanth which seems to me to be a textbook case of getting the most use out of meager resourses. Unlike previous encounters, the Royal Dohlaran Army is still intact and fighting right up to the cease fire forced by the navy trashing the Gorath industrial front. The other land battle of note for me was when the AOG first encounters the balloons and starts trying to compensate for its exposed position.

At sea as on land, things took on an aura of inevitability which I suppose is to be expected for the concluding book of the story arc. But I chose the Cities assault on Rhaigair and the Cities plus the Gylymn Manthyr's assault on Gorath Both explored the limitation of the Cities class when encountering the best the other side had to offer. The loss of Eraystor and Riverbend was tragic, but it did demonstrate that there is no such thing as invincibility. Note to Cities captains; 12 inch Dohlaran ordinance will penetrate your armor even though it was the rockets that did the real damage. We also observe that even though the Manthyr is the most powerful ship in the world, Sarmouth is very much aware of her vulnerability to mines. His solution for sweeping the mines was creative, but not completely foolproof.

Enough rambling for now. Someone elses turn.

Don

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Louis R wrote:Pursuing one of your thoughts a little further, a good argument can be made for Rychtair being the best land-force commander on either side. The Allies exploited capabilities the other side didn't know they had, or understood very imperfectly. Brilliantly, sometimes - Green Valley's little Winter War is a marvel - and always intelligently and effectively, but they repeatedly came at their enemies from places the Temple Boys didn't know to look at. Rychtair's opponents didn't even need to read his playbook over his shoulder, they knew perfectly well what had to be in it, but they still had to beat him the old-fashioned way. And he nearly fought them to a draw the old-fashioned way, too, using inferior forces, inferior equipment or both. True, they didn't turn the very latest bells and whistles loose on him, but I have to wonder how much they'd have helped.

Indeed so. Yet, Rychtyr only faced forces that were marginally superior to his on his home field. They fought under the spectre of a vengeful enemy eager to retaliate for twice giving POWs to the Inquisition and the atrocities of the initial invasion of Siddermark. No force had greater motivation to fight than Rychtyr's. Rychtyr used that motivation very well indeed, perhaps even brilliantly.

However, had he faced balloons and the full array of weapons Eastshare and Green Valley visited up North, burnt toast in a five-day.

Don's point #2 on Charisian productivity is in my view the biggest element contributing to their victory. Charis' ability to produce weapons AND maintain economic growth enabled them to sustain support for the war for much longer than the mainland. Charis could have rebuilt after reverses assuming they could keep the jihad away from their core Empire. The Temple Lands couldn't maintain their economy even though Charis never directly attacked the TE core. The same can be said for North Harchong. Like the USSR in the Cold War, the Loyalist less efficient economies buckled under the demands of out producing their enemy.

Absent the threat of a complete collapse, Duchairn would not have pulled the trigger or sought help from the Helm Cleaver. The Temple would have continued fighting and producing more weapons, just as Charis would have had Siddermark fallen under the initial onslaught of the Sword of Schueler.

Innovation allowed Charis to defeat armies on the filed of battle, but victory required the Loyalists to quit. Charisian productivity convinced the Loyalists they could not win and so quitting was their best option.

PeterZ wrote:Don's point #2 on Charisian productivity is in my view the biggest element contributing to their victory. Charis' ability to produce weapons AND maintain economic growth enabled them to sustain support for the war for much longer than the mainland. Charis could have rebuilt after reverses assuming they could keep the jihad away from their core Empire. The Temple Lands couldn't maintain their economy even though Charis never directly attacked the TE core. The same can be said for North Harchong. Like the USSR in the Cold War, the Loyalist less efficient economies buckled under the demands of out producing their enemy.

Absent the threat of a complete collapse, Duchairn would not have pulled the trigger or sought help from the Helm Cleaver. The Temple would have continued fighting and producing more weapons, just as Charis would have had Siddermark fallen under the initial onslaught of the Sword of Schueler.

Innovation allowed Charis to defeat armies on the filed of battle, but victory required the Loyalists to quit. Charisian productivity convinced the Loyalists they could not win and so quitting was their best option.

Building on this the most important battles were only seen a couple of times but often alluded to. That is the swarms of Charisian privateers and navy light units keeping the seas swept clear of Loyalist shipping. Time and again production is derailed or even stopped because of a lack of shipping and the inland canal system can't compensate at all. This more than anything is what knocked Desnair out fairly early and flattened thier economy.

Silverwall wrote:
Building on this the most important battles were only seen a couple of times but often alluded to. That is the swarms of Charisian privateers and navy light units keeping the seas swept clear of Loyalist shipping. Time and again production is derailed or even stopped because of a lack of shipping and the inland canal system can't compensate at all. This more than anything is what knocked Desnair out fairly early and flattened thier economy.

Excellent point. The mainland's quantitative superiority in production required transportation to marshal effectively. Charis's control of trade routes forced the mainland to try to become as efficient as Charis. Their failure hamstrung the mainland's ability to sustain the war in the face of serious setbacks. The lack of transportation limited the usable resources base to support the jihad.

Charisian productivity may well have allowed them to launch a "peninsular campaign" in Siddermark had the SoS succeeded. I suspect that Silkiah and Thesmar would have been the entry points for such a campaign. Such a campaign would have cost many more Charisian lives, but between recruiting disaffected Siddermarkians and Charisian productivity the EoC could have continued to take the war to the CoGA. Had things gone that way, I doubt Siddermark would have come back from that without serious issues that would have impeded reunification after the eventual Charisian victory.

Some more thoughts...

What's happened between the alliance and the COGA is a classic example of starting out with superior resources, but having that turn out meaningless because those resources could not be adequately mustered and utilized for the task at hand. Some of this has to do with the tech advantage Charis enjoyed, esp with introduction of the steamers and armored vessels which pretty much iced the EOC's mastery of the sea and how that crippled the Temple's supply lines. It also has to do with Temple armies moving at a snail's pace in the face of nimble allied armies. In the race between the tortise and the hare, the tortise only wins if the hare forgets to run.

Going on, I've wondered about Raindow Waters tactical defense, strategic offence strategy. It was explained well enough in the book and I don't see any better alternatives for the Temple, given the tech imbalance. It might have worked better if the Alliance had not come up with the more powerful shells and the balloons.

But still, I do find myself wondering if a stronger effort couldn't have been made to convert a portion of those Harchongese calvarymen into dragoons. They wouldn't have liked it, but still with some inquisitors helping supervise the effort, I'm thinking that the MH could have been made a bit kore mobile.

Don

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