US Presidential Candidates

Option #3, political pressure can be ruled out I think.

Obama is a lame duck and has little to no pressure left to bring to bear, and I doubt Trump want's to claim Russia influenced the election.

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Annachie wrote:Option #3, political pressure can be ruled out I think.

Obama is a lame duck and has little to no pressure left to bring to bear, and I doubt Trump want's to claim Russia influenced the election.

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Actually, option 3 is probably by far the MOST likely.

Whether Obama is a lame duck or not has absolutely zero to with something like this.
His administration is still the one giving orders, and is the main force behind the "new cold war" as it´s being called.

biochem wrote:Given that the government in Detroit is both incompetent and corrupt, the election problems observed could be due to either (i.e. 306 voters showed up and cast ballots, but the poll workers only documented 50 of them or someone added extra Democratic ballots for 256 invisible voters). Since there is hard evidence of something bad either extreme incompetence or corruption, Detroit's precincts should be monitored by court appointed neutral observers next time. Perhaps we can hire the Australians.

Agree with Peter that one party government (either party) leads to corruption. We are best served when there is a functional opposition. In Idaho for example (one party Republican), there aren't ballot problems but there are a lot of corrupt crony backroom deals that are never called out because the Democrats are so non-functional. So it's a two way street.

Detroit is strongly Democratic - why would Democrats undercount votes in such an area?

Also, Wayne county election results for 2016:

Trump: 228,993
Clinton: 519,444
Other: 34,282

Compared to 2012 (linking to Wikipedia because the summary on the official website - same page as above, near the bottom - isn't opening for me):

Obama: 595,846
Romney: 213,814

So if the Democrats were cheating they obviously did a very poor job of it.

Also, didn't Detroit have issues with obsolete (and obsolescent) voting machines?

PeterZ wrote:Perhaps I was unclear; recounts are too limited. I want an FBI investigation. That is more likely under Trump.

The recount in Michigan was shitcanned by a Michigan judge because ia recount would reveal just what it did. Pennsylvania was motivated similarly and responded similarly. Recounts are politically driven. FBI investigations are less political or at least less likely to be.

What interest does Trump have in an investigation? Despite what he and his team would have you believe, his victory was hardly a landslide - he lost the popular vote by an unprecedented number for a winning President (in # of votes - proportionally, he's in third place but #2 and especially #1 arguably don't count). While he won the EC, his margin there was the 11th or 12th from the bottom (and IIRC most presidents who had a worse performance had a strong third-party contender costing them EVs).

So in order for an investigation to be worthwhile for him, he'd need it to invalidate close to 3 million votes. That's very unlikely; and worse, as a matter of probability, there's a bigger likelihood* of invalidating the 80,000 votes by which he won - which would prove to be rather embarrassing.

Given that he fought the recounts tooth and nail (despite arguably having an interest in them, given that he was claiming massive voter fraud), I doubt he's sufficiently interested in the integrity of the elections to risk it.

Tenshinai wrote:Seriously, get a grip. Or at least TRY.

You may want to check out antipsychotic drugs.

While I don't agree with Peter, please tone it down a notch.

*Should note that I don't believe it would happen, just that it's more likely than the other

Eyal,

There is serious election fraud in the US. The cities like Detroit and Chicago utilize inaccurate voter rolls to engage in election fraud. What happened in Detroit indicates serious problems. That is what I would have ivestigations address. No investigation will change the results, that's done' hence the distinction between this and a recount. Investigate so that future elections do not have these problems.

As for Trump's interests, his base out in the boonies understand election fraud quite well. They simply are not well equipped to take advantage of it. Oklahoma or Idaho election fraud secures their state but that's unlikely to move elections. Locking Detroit, Pittsgurgh, Philadelphia, Chicago, New York and LA can secure elections. Limiting how much these cities can use inaccurate voter rolls to offset downstate votes does secure elections. LBJ delivered Houston and Daley delivered Chicago to get JFK in the White House. Both cities are one party bastions with a reputation for ectoral shenanigans.

Nothing will secure and broaden that base more than honestly investigating election irregularities, controlling the border and getting the economy on track (not in that particular order). If he really wants to shoot both the Dems and Repubs, he can facilitate alternative party competitiveness in national elections. The Dem coalition fragments and the donor class have to broaden their investment to secure the same amount of influence. This is doubtful, but one can hope.

While I don't agree with Peter, please tone it down a notch.

Why? What good does it do him if people pampers his delusions? Nothing helpful about that.

PeterZ wrote:Eyal,

There is serious election fraud in the US. The cities like Detroit and Chicago utilize inaccurate voter rolls to engage in election fraud.

And you should read this with the qualifying statement "according to Republicans despite the lack of evidence of same."

What happened in Detroit indicates serious problems.

Yes it does. For one thing they reported HALF their voting machines broke on election night which almost certainly completely screwed over the voters there and likely contributed to a lot of confusion. Maybe the people responsible for these things should look into it. that would be the Republican Secretary of State of Michigan FYI.

That is what I would have ivestigations address. No investigation will change the results, that's done' hence the distinction between this and a recount.

Actually, if an investigation discovered fraud that swung the result it would change the result. That's kind of the law.

Which is why Trump WILL NOT INVESTIGATE but he WILL rant without evidence that there were millions of illegal votes all for his opponent because he's such an insecure little crybaby that he can't accept that he didn't win the popular vote and is willing to undermine the voters faith in the integrity of an election HE WON on a technicality of the system rather than grow up and realize he's about to become president and the shit he keeps saying has consequences.

gcomeau wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Eyal,

There is serious election fraud in the US. The cities like Detroit and Chicago utilize inaccurate voter rolls to engage in election fraud.

And you should read this with the qualifying statement "according to Republicans despite the lack of evidence of same."

What happened in Detroit indicates serious problems.

Yes it does. For one thing they reported HALF their voting machines broke on election night which almost certainly completely screwed over the voters there and likely contributed to a lot of confusion. Maybe the people responsible for these things should look into it. that would be the Republican Secretary of State of Michigan FYI.

That is what I would have ivestigations address. No investigation will change the results, that's done' hence the distinction between this and a recount.

Actually, if an investigation discovered fraud that swung the result it would change the result. That's kind of the law.

Which is why Trump WILL NOT INVESTIGATE but he WILL rant without evidence that there were millions of illegal votes all for his opponent because he's such an insecure little crybaby that he can't accept that he didn't win the popular vote and is willing to undermine the voters faith in the integrity of an election HE WON on a technicality of the system rather than grow up and realize he's about to become president and the shit he keeps saying has consequences.

Once those elections are certified, then the election stands. Investigations after the Inauguration will change nothing. Besides, the risk that more votes were manufactured in flyover country than the metropolises is very small. If Republicans have more fraud all across the country than Democrats have in those large cities, that needs to be fixed. If the election is called into question, then fix the problem before we have another election. It would be better to have another election than having the SCOTUS decide who the President is.

Whether he will or won't investigate is to be seen. I want an investigation to look into the irregularities in Detroit and everywhere else for good measure. If Trump decides to have an investigation, regardless of what is discovered, he cannot be at fault. He wasn't involved with either party's organization before this election. Any election fraud discovered will have been a long standing issue that predates him. He literally has nothing to lose by investigating besides destroying the power bases of both parties more thoroughly, while his remains largely intact.

PeterZ wrote:

gcomeau wrote:Yes it does. For one thing they reported HALF their voting machines broke on election night which almost certainly completely screwed over the voters there and likely contributed to a lot of confusion. Maybe the people responsible for these things should look into it. that would be the Republican Secretary of State of Michigan FYI.

....

Actually, if an investigation discovered fraud that swung the result it would change the result. That's kind of the law.

Which is why Trump WILL NOT INVESTIGATE but he WILL rant without evidence that there were millions of illegal votes all for his opponent because he's such an insecure little crybaby that he can't accept that he didn't win the popular vote and is willing to undermine the voters faith in the integrity of an election HE WON on a technicality of the system rather than grow up and realize he's about to become president and the shit he keeps saying has consequences.

Once those elections are certified, then the election stands. Investigations after the Inauguration will change nothing. Besides, the risk that more votes were manufactured in flyover country than the metropolises is very small.

You do understand that manufacturing extra votes is only *one* direction fraud or other means of illegally influencing elections can work in right?


Just mark it down now Peter. There is zip chance Trump will investigate. Zero. Nada. It is never going to happen. He will keep saying there were MILLIONS of illegal votes but he will not touch an investigation into it with a 100 foot pole.

He literally has nothing to lose by investigating besides...

...potentially proving to the entire world he actually lost not just the popular vote but the EC contest as well if the election integrity had been maintained and that his presidency is illegitimate.

Which to Trump is the worst possible thing in the entire world if you have been paying any level of attention whatsoever to the man's character. He'd rather watch the country burn than take a hit to his ego. He will NEVER risk it. He doesn't give the tiniest shit about the integrity of the nation's election system for cripes sake.

gcomeau wrote:
...potentially proving to the entire world he actually lost not just the popular vote but the EC contest as well if the election integrity had been maintained and that his presidency is illegitimate.

Which to Trump is the worst possible thing in the entire world if you have been paying any level of attention whatsoever to the man's character. He'd rather watch the country burn than take a hit to his ego. He will NEVER risk it. He doesn't give the tiniest shit about the integrity of the nation's election system for cripes sake.

We'll see. I've marked the date and your assertion. let's see how this plays out.

PeterZ wrote:

gcomeau wrote:
...potentially proving to the entire world he actually lost not just the popular vote but the EC contest as well if the election integrity had been maintained and that his presidency is illegitimate.

Which to Trump is the worst possible thing in the entire world if you have been paying any level of attention whatsoever to the man's character. He'd rather watch the country burn than take a hit to his ego. He will NEVER risk it. He doesn't give the tiniest shit about the integrity of the nation's election system for cripes sake.

We'll see. I've marked the date and your assertion. let's see how this plays out.

Yes, unfortunately we will...