Battle of Manticore

Love,love,love the well reasoned discussion. Can't fault any of it.

BUT- if SKM waits until apollo fully deployed then haven attacks, (1) Tourville gets creamed and home fleet is relatively unscathed. (2) Albrecht Detweiller does not push forward OB. (3) Subsequent peace treaty with Haven does not produce GA, probably (but,yes, can be argued) (4) Filareta's Folly never happens.

Then not have we not advanced the time line we have also barely advanced the plot line. OB is still 2 years out. and all the rush to evacuate the onion from Mesa is much more sedate BORRRRING

WeirdlyWired wrote:Love,love,love the well reasoned discussion. Can't fault any of it.

BUT- if SKM waits until apollo fully deployed then haven attacks, (1) Tourville gets creamed and home fleet is relatively unscathed. (2) Albrecht Detweiller does not push forward OB. (3) Subsequent peace treaty with Haven does not produce GA, probably (but,yes, can be argued) (4) Filareta's Folly never happens.

Then not have we not advanced the time line we have also barely advanced the plot line. OB is still 2 years out. and all the rush to evacuate the onion from Mesa is much more sedate BORRRRING

Actually it's unclear what would happen with OB. Certainly the panic wouldn't set in until Apollo was unleashed - so it gets pushed back a few months.
The big unanswerable question is whether Detwiler goes for it anyway, despite Apollo's wider distribution and the changed strategic landscape or whether he pulls in his horns and delays the MAligns endgame by a century or two.

Wider deployment of Apollo doesn't seem to make the actual Oyster Bay attacks harder - you can still sneak in and shred the infrastructure. It's how you see things playing out after that that might make you decide even that isn't worth it...

I don't think that it would matter in regards to Oyster Bay, if it goes ahead or not the rest of the plan was already in motion. They had Haven and Manticore shooting at each other, and they also had over 400 SLN SD's in the region. Basically the whole problem could have been solved without having to dumb down the RMN so significantly... to make the plot easier we end up with a brain-dead command team that couldn't foresee the most obvious conclusion that anyone should have seen.

Sigs wrote:I don't think that it would matter in regards to Oyster Bay, if it goes ahead or not the rest of the plan was already in motion. They had Haven and Manticore shooting at each other, and they also had over 400 SLN SD's in the region. Basically the whole problem could have been solved without having to dumb down the RMN so significantly... to make the plot easier we end up with a brain-dead command team that couldn't foresee the most obvious conclusion that anyone should have seen.

The Sharks that actually executed OB were not built for that. The Leonard Detweillers (Lenny Ds)currently under construction were slated for completion ~2 years later than the actual OB. The MA had already started moving people out. They took advantage of McBride's spectacular defection attempt aka Green Pines to hide some movements. Now, they have to rush execution of Houdini.

Peace treaty with Haven is a bit tricky with abject defeat of Tourville. but, probably, Honor's argument wins in the long run. And there is no Filareta's fleet.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. It is what it is. I guess I just wrote it off to hubris. Now I'll have to re read MoH from this new perspective. [sigh].

WeirdlyWired wrote:

Sigs wrote:I don't think that it would matter in regards to Oyster Bay, if it goes ahead or not the rest of the plan was already in motion. They had Haven and Manticore shooting at each other, and they also had over 400 SLN SD's in the region. Basically the whole problem could have been solved without having to dumb down the RMN so significantly... to make the plot easier we end up with a brain-dead command team that couldn't foresee the most obvious conclusion that anyone should have seen.

The Sharks that actually executed OB were not built for that. The Leonard Detweillers (Lenny Ds)currently under construction were slated for completion ~2 years later than the actual OB. The MA had already started moving people out. They took advantage of McBride's spectacular defection attempt aka Green Pines to hide some movements. Now, they have to rush execution of Houdini.

Peace treaty with Haven is a bit tricky with abject defeat of Tourville. but, probably, Honor's argument wins in the long run. And there is no Filareta's fleet.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. It is what it is. I guess I just wrote it off to hubris. Now I'll have to re read MoH from this new perspective. [sigh].

Battle of Manticore still happens. Haven was leaning on it either way, the only difference is that the RMN should have had a plan in order without being so surprised at something that they should have planned for and prepared for since day one.

Simply put, the whole thing does not make any sense, they(Manticore) think that Haven sabotaged it's own peace negotiations why were they not prepared to believe that if they(Haven) torpedoed the negotiations they were planning something big? Like an offensive to end the war?

The awful book is a checklist. There was a list of things that needed to be done in it and it didn't hesitate to liberally use the plot hammer to get it done.

Don't you hate it when "suspension of disbelief fails?"

All of this plot point was actually before SoV, it was set up in the one before MoH. (deftly dances around entire "what a horrid book" thread)