"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

Fox2! wrote:

munroburton wrote:Nowhere. I simply don't think it's completely out of the question that the RMN(which has probably the widest range of missiles of any Navy btw) might have an older model lying around that would be smaller than what a Solly cruiser fires. According to HoS, the RMN still has a substantial number of older destroyers and light cruisers in service - it's more likely than not that those missiles would be smaller than those of Solly BC/CAs.

Even if the RMN have to go with a physically smaller missile to fit into the Sollie tube, they can easily provide a sabot to fill the gap in the tube. And the sabots won't require the use of warship or weapons qualified manufacturers. Any body who can mold a soda bottle can mold a sabot.

The problem is SLN tubes, I am assuming, are smaller diameter than RMN DD mark 16,17 missiles and especially Mark 23s. I suppose the old Chansons might use smaller missiles. I think haven's missiles have gotten larger in diameter also. But yes if the old models are small enough to fit a simple sleeve would work if necessary. But this is all supposition,if they are not small enough then ...

SYED wrote:Just because the league knows the ships are obsolete, does not mean every world is aware? So the sales need to be quick with no refunds. They might know the league is being stomped, but by how much.

And even if they know, doesn't mean they would not want them. Back to The Travis Long books, Haven was selling off surplus ships to very willing systems. In a suddenly more hostile universe, some system defense is better than none.

Torch is still struggling to train personnel to man the captured ships from MA's attack. Other systems will have the same or similar issues. And Manticore lacks the personnel to deliver them and repair them.

rdelorme16 wrote:Please consider that the REAL POWER of Manticore and Haven is their modern missiles not the ship hulls.

The real power is the Command and control of those missiles at those long ranges. That C&C requires Keyhole II to fully take advantage of it.

I really do like the flamers that attack idea without reading them completely: In may previous proposal I suggested that the SD be used to control system defense pods. If one goes back and reads the requirements for the proposed space station, which have to built in a yard and transported in pieces and then assembled on site, the system defense stations require a SD fire control and a tractored drone with Apollo capacity. It seems to me that that the captured SD have the basic requirements with no "major" refits. I assume that one would want to upgrade the defenses a bit. Manticore needs several system defense stations per star system in the Quadrant. That could run in the hundreds of space stations: thus use of captured SD would actually reduce the strain on shipyard space.

Manticore has ZERO shipyard space. Almost ZERO shipyard workers compliments of Haven which repatriated 20,000ish from Hancock/Grendlesbane. All they have is the repair ships they are recalling. From my experience building an ocean going barge from plate is a lot easier than converting a tanker to a barge.

Once you build one yard you have to prioritize both the yard space, and the few workers you have. Yu need some of those workers to train new workers. You have to send them to Grayson and to the Talbott quadrant too.
Then you have to do a cost/time analysis to set priorities. nd it is much easier to estimate times on new construction than on conversions, as anyone who has tackled a DIY project can understand

As for the light units BC and CA, I did not suggest replacing their missile launchers, but use missile pods from Haven to give the ships long range fire power.

Great idea. Trade them to Haven for new hulls. Let haven deal with them. After all, Haven has a right to some of the war prizes since they participated in the battle too. And lets not forget Grayson. Haven has lots of shipbuilding capacity and plenty of trained workers

I proposed that Destroyers be converted to survey/ exploration ships: this is a none combat role so for these smaller vessels.

And just how much need is there for these types of hulls? And who would want them? Exploration ships need lots of extra Supplies and environmental in case they have to take the long way home. Thess types of v essels are of limited demand, I would assume,

The Talbot sector has to have some shipbuilding capacity as the Rembrandt Association maintained and I assume built a few ships. Also Monica had ship building capacity; I assume that the some of the Quadrant would have some limited space based industry. Conversion of these captured ships would be a way to expand a limited capacity over time.

Or they could equally expand by laying down NEW construction and not have to use manpower the RMN does not have to transport these ships to Talbott. But Civilian Construction capacity is not the same as Military Construction capacity. Civilian construction is unarmored. Cofferdamming, airtight compartmentization is different. (from MoH)

Most of the Manticore Alliance had very little or no ship building capacity at the start of war with Haven, but several systems were building ships before the armistice.

True of Grayson. But King Roger was building up the fleet, what, 40 years before OBS. Yes it greatly expanded, but what is your point?

The surrender ships can be claimed under international law a prizes without a declaration of war; as the ships were captured in an "act of war".

Certainly. So let Haven claim their share, then trade yours for hulls. That way YOU get new hulls and don't have to spend manpower you don't have to update the stuff that Michelle Henke deemed too obsolete to keep way back when she took Bing out.

ONE final point: There is no reason a traditional dreadnaught cannot carry as many missile pods as a podnaught: There is no reason on cannot put the rail system on the exterior of the ship; the pods would be more vulnerable and the one would most likely have to reposition the side walls generators. There is a mention in one of the books that Andermati Empire explored placing racks of missile pods on their light ships.

Externally that is true. Internally we go back to the concern when the first podnaughts rolled off the lines: Could they stand up to battle damage with their hollow cores? Removing all that internal bulkhead of the old magazines to pack in pods weakens the whole structure. there would be much engineering to do and extra support added to convert ti internal pod SDs. And repositioning all those sidewall generators. With men you do not have in ship slips you do not have. Or do this instead of laying down NEW construction which is much more straight forward with green hands,

So beware the Solarian League has thousands of ships they could convert this way. They would be more fragile but the League could swap several conversions for on Manticore or Haven ship.

And they do not have bandwidth to control pod launches now. They convert 20,000 SD to SDps and STILL have no control over their missiles. (p691 SOV) "...and there'd been no point in holding any of them back for targeted follow-on salvos. Not only did [SLN]BatCruRon 720 face a 'use them or lose them' situation but it was impossible to individually target missiles at such an enormous range."

Did I miss anything???

There is a fast way to build a yard, you use dispersed yards in reverse. Park a Captured or Mothballed SD DR BB or BC, you use the living quarters, power systems, sensors, shuttles, You build a Yard around it, next to it, and start building a new ship. You transfer Systems from the ship you are based upon. Systems that can be transfered. Bottles, displays, bulkheads, berths, Kitchens, Grasers, PD Cannons, CM tubes, Life support, You want ship yards but have no infrastructure, it was Oystered bayed, problem solved.

Lord Skimper wrote:There is a fast way to build a yard, you use dispersed yards in reverse. Park a Captured or Mothballed SD DR BB or BC, you use the living quarters, power systems, sensors, shuttles, You build a Yard around it, next to it, and start building a new ship. You transfer Systems from the ship you are based upon. Systems that can be transfered. Bottles, displays, bulkheads, berths, Kitchens, Grasers, PD Cannons, CM tubes, Life support, You want ship yards but have no infrastructure, it was Oystered bayed, problem solved.

I brought up exactly the same possibility maybe 10 pages back. Seems there are issues with SLN reactors requiring lots of nursing along and being too low powered to maintain life support + Construction power.

However I still agree that even just using the hulls as the base for a platform is "something besides scrap value" even if one ejects the reactors and replaces them.

WeirdlyWired wrote:
However I still agree that even just using the hulls as the base for a platform is "something besides scrap value" even if one ejects the reactors and replaces them.

But you can't eject the reactor from an SD/DN/BC, they're buried too deeply in the hull, behind hundreds of meters of armor, cofferdaming, power and control runs, etc., etc., etc. Remember how much trouble the yard had getting at Nike's reactor when it had to be replaced.

Digging the SL reactors out would require the same resources that this concept is supposed to provide.

WeirdlyWired wrote:I brought up exactly the same possibility maybe 10 pages back. Seems there are issues with SLN reactors requiring lots of nursing along and being too low powered to maintain life support + Construction power.

I think that's a specious argument. There's no reason there wouldn't be enough power to run a dispersed shipyard. The manpower requirement might be a problem but not as much of a problem as organizing and training even a ferry crew -- you'd basically need a "harbor watch" in engineering and on the bridge; maybe 250-300 people.

The biggest argument against the idea is that in the intervening time since oyster bay it hasn't been done -- or at least hasn't been mentioned.

Manticore does have moth-balled ships that wouldn't require as big a harbor watch and have better power production that be a better choice and without the potential legal hassles of using captured ships that still might get repatriated.

Weird Harold wrote:
Manticore does have moth-balled ships that wouldn't require as big a harbor watch and have better power production that be a better choice and without the potential legal hassles of using captured ships that still might get repatriated.

There are a large(ish) number of DNs and pre-pod SDs in reserve for the RMN. While the Admiralty is trying to bring a number of them back to active duty, some of them might be diverted more productively to form the core of a dispersed yard than the equivalent number of Sollie hulls, even with the question of whether or not the state of relations between the SEM and SL actually constitutes a state of war The SEM considers Filareta's Folly to have been an act of war and proceeded accordingly with Operation Lacoon. I don't think the Mandarins consider the League to be at war with the SEM. But they will act as if they were.

Fox2! wrote:There are a large(ish) number of DNs and pre-pod SDs in reserve for the RMN. While the Admiralty is trying to bring a number of them back to active duty, some of them might be diverted more productively to form the core of a dispersed yard than the equivalent number of Sollie hulls, ...

There is also the question: "Can this be done cheaper, easier, or faster by some other means." That is the real killer for most suggestions about the captured SLN ships.

Weird Harold wrote: There is also the question: "Can this be done cheaper, easier, or faster by some other means." That is the real killer for most suggestions about the captured SLN ships.

Can't find the passage. But it goes something like "how much do ships change in 150 years after all. Just mothball them and make the few upgrades when you need to reactivate them."

Maybe there are decent, even good computers aboard, the ships are still woefully outdated. Yes you could find uses for them but why would any sane planner want to?