Next Bolthole devellopment

SYED wrote:I wonder if the good doctor can provide enough details to start development of their own version of the Streak and Spider drives. The streak drive would be simpler, the alliance do currently have the fastest warships around. Hopefully they have the capability to adapt their current ships to be capable of achieve higher levels of hyper space,

The real issue would be the spider drive. We know ships have to be specially built to make use of it. I wonder what ships would truly make best use of is system.

I don't think that the GA has any use for the spider drive, other than to use it to investigate better detectors.

It takes a while to go from "this looks good on paper" to actual production-quality hardware. How much Simöes knows about the hardware is questionable, so I doubt if we'll see streak drive equipped ships by the next book.

JohnRoth wrote: I don't think that the GA has any use for the spider drive, other than to use it to investigate better detectors.

It takes a while to go from "this looks good on paper" to actual production-quality hardware. How much Simöes knows about the hardware is questionable, so I doubt if we'll see streak drive equipped ships by the next book.

Probably so. The Streak would have more application on courrier boats. I assume one would have to upgrade particle shielding as well. Some cargo ships may benefit, like those carrying foods like Montana beef. The cost/benefit computations ... not my thing.

Not sure where to put this, so I'll post it here.

On more carefully reading SoV, I note that at one point the MA notes that they have given the Sollies the latest weapons technology for the Mesan Alignment Navy. In nearly the final chapter, Scotty Tremaine shows clear Alliance superiority over ships equipped with this technology. It seems to me, therefore, that the Alliance fleets could expect to defeat Juggernaut fleets using the technology available in any conflict in the next few years.

Other SoV data points: during the Yawata Strike, the MAN commander notes that they are using the "testbeds" for their new fleet. Later analysis by the Manties suggests that Mycroft is capable of detecting and destroying system-penetrating MAN craft, meaning that the slight stealth advantage the MAN had over the RMN is now negated where Mycroft is fully deployed.

With regard to the streak drive: it seems to me that this is one of the two main remaining "dangling threads" after SoV, the other being the discovery of the Torch wormhole. I have just seen one of those dangling threads from the second book of the Safehold series iirc resurface in a big way in the final book of the series -- so I fully expect these two threads to play an important role in the next Honorverse book. If I were to conjecture, Simoes not only knows where the streak drive is right now, he knows where the technology is going -- meaning that we may see an improved version, either adding a band for even greater speed or making the technology better suited for warships, or both. Even a few retrofits could make a big difference, eliminating the Alignment's ability to operate "inside the opponent's communication loop" and possibly renewing the potential for hyperspace pursuit by one warship dropping from a higher band than the opponent.

wkernochan wrote:Not sure where to put this, so I'll post it here.

On more carefully reading SoV, I note that at one point the MA notes that they have given the Sollies the latest weapons technology for the Mesan Alignment Navy. In nearly the final chapter, Scotty Tremaine shows clear Alliance superiority over ships equipped with this technology. It seems to me, therefore, that the Alliance fleets could expect to defeat Juggernaut fleets using the technology available in any conflict in the next few years.

Nope. Captain (or is it Commodore?) Tremaine used a trick that has a rather short shelf life to thin out the waves of Cataphract missiles. His eight-LAC screening element only got a few of them, and the Lorelei drones only got a few more. If it hadn't been for the trick up his sleeve, he'd have been toast. Or rather rapidly dispersing wisps of glowing gas.

wkernochan wrote:Other SoV data points: during the Yawata Strike, the MAN commander notes that they are using the "testbeds" for their new fleet. Later analysis by the Manties suggests that Mycroft is capable of detecting and destroying system-penetrating MAN craft, meaning that the slight stealth advantage the MAN had over the RMN is now negated where Mycroft is fully deployed.

They hope it is. In this case, hope is backed up by a plan, but they don't have any actual evidence that they can detect spider drive ships, since they've never detected one.

wkernochan wrote:With regard to the streak drive: it seems to me that this is one of the two main remaining "dangling threads" after SoV, the other being the discovery of the Torch wormhole. I have just seen one of those dangling threads from the second book of the Safehold series iirc resurface in a big way in the final book of the series -- so I fully expect these two threads to play an important role in the next Honorverse book. If I were to conjecture, Simoes not only knows where the streak drive is right now, he knows where the technology is going -- meaning that we may see an improved version, either adding a band for even greater speed or making the technology better suited for warships, or both. Even a few retrofits could make a big difference, eliminating the Alignment's ability to operate "inside the opponent's communication loop" and possibly renewing the potential for hyperspace pursuit by one warship dropping from a higher band than the opponent.

You mean the discovery of where the Torch wormhole leads. They already know where the Torch wormhole is at. It's three light-hours from Congo.

There's a big difference between the Honorverse and the Safehold series: Safehold didn't have Eric Flint come in in the middle and wreak havoc on the plot. RFC has said that nobody but the GA believes in this mythical "Mesan Alignment," which suggests that the RF hasn't been outed and they haven't found Felix or Darius.

wkernochan wrote:Other SoV data points: during the Yawata Strike, the MAN commander notes that they are using the "testbeds" for their new fleet. Later analysis by the Manties suggests that Mycroft is capable of detecting and destroying system-penetrating MAN craft, meaning that the slight stealth advantage the MAN had over the RMN is now negated where Mycroft is fully deployed.

With regard to the streak drive: it seems to me that this is one of the two main remaining "dangling threads" after SoV, the other being the discovery of the Torch wormhole. I have just seen one of those dangling threads from the second book of the Safehold series iirc resurface in a big way in the final book of the series -- so I fully expect these two threads to play an important role in the next Honorverse book. If I were to conjecture, Simoes not only knows where the streak drive is right now, he knows where the technology is going -- meaning that we may see an improved version, either adding a band for even greater speed or making the technology better suited for warships, or both. Even a few retrofits could make a big difference, eliminating the Alignment's ability to operate "inside the opponent's communication loop" and possibly renewing the potential for hyperspace pursuit by one warship dropping from a higher band than the opponent.

Huh, I certainly don't remember anything indicating the Mycroft could somehow pierce the very advanced stealth systems the Shark (and presumably Detwiler class ships use).


I don't see the streak drive making it all that practical to pounce from a higher hyper band. Yes it solves part of the problem, which is you need to be able to access the higher band, but the other parts remain. First you have some uncertainty in emergence location - so you might pounce and find yourself well out of range.
Second you still have to deal with transition bleed-off of velocity. The percentage of impact decreases in higher bands but you still lose 48% of your velocity entering or leaving the Iota band.

The velocity lose transitioning upwards surprisingly seems to be the bigger problem.
OK, your and your target are both zipping along at full speed (0.6c) in the Theta bands and you decided to use your streak drive to jump up to Iota then drop down on them.

You enter Iota and lose 48% of your velocity; dropping you to 0.288c; which given the effective times c of that band gives you an n-space equivalent of 1254c.
Your target meanwhile continues at 0.6c in the Theta band, n-space equivalent of 2160c.
If we assume you have a 600g safe acceleration rate it would take you 19 minutes to equalize that velocity and start closing the gap. (Obviously if you pop into a grav wave the roughly 10x accel boost makes this much quicker)

That's 19+ minutes where your target could apply any vector they wanted to alter their course, or even drop into a lower band to evade.

But let's say they're flying blind and dumb and keep a straight line course until you get just ahead of their anticipated position and you drop back into the Theta bands. Again you lose 48% of your velocity so they're moving 93,500 km/s faster than you are - and you might be up to a few million km off your aim point. Even if they didn't maneuver they might not be in missile range of your emergence point - though hopefully you're far enough ahead of them you can cut them off if they try to angle away from you.
But if you're behind them you'll never catch up because you've got the same top speeds.[1]


However having crunched some of the numbers the biggest problem is how long it takes to move past their estimate position as you recover from the velocity drop going up. That's a lot of time for them to take evasive action.

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[1] I'm assuming you're chasing a ship with military grade shielding. If not you'd use your superior top speed to close without screwing around changing hyper bands.

Manticore "Bolt hole"

There are some considerations that have not been brought up.
1) Manticore does not need to move its scientist to a "secret shipyard". The immediate need to build ships not develop secret tech.
2) The best place to build ships is where resources are readily available. For the massive hulls that would be an asteroid belt, but for the weapon systems that would be near a high tech industrial base. But most of a ships mass is armor and structural support. Thus secret "satellite yards" would serve the necessary function.
3) There are hundreds of star systems with in 50 LY of Earth and one must assume Manticore. In addition with the wormholes to Basilisk and the Quadrant there are literally a thousand near by systems. Most of these systems are barren systems with no habitable planet: PERFECT.

One intriguing possibility would be for Manticore and Grayson to take some of the damaged Solarian SD and refit them as mobile shipyard/fabrication facilities. Basically a "squadron" of construction ships would arrive in an uninhabited system and setup ore processors and "dispersed yards". The construction ships would carry fabrication equipment and serve as living quarters for the yard crews. One advantage of this approach is that the yard crews could be evacuated if necessary.

rdelorme16 wrote:Manticore "Bolt hole"

There are some considerations that have not been brought up.
1) Manticore does not need to move its scientist to a "secret shipyard". The immediate need to build ships not develop secret tech.
2) The best place to build ships is where resources are readily available. For the massive hulls that would be an asteroid belt, but for the weapon systems that would be near a high tech industrial base. But most of a ships mass is armor and structural support. Thus secret "satellite yards" would serve the necessary function.

Those considerations don't really apply. The sole reason for a Manticore delegation to Bolthole is that Bolthole is no longer a secret R&D Facility, it is simply the center of Havenite shipbuilding with the resources and shipyards needed to install Manticoran Tech in Havenite ships and build hulls for Beowulf to install Keyhole II into to create a "Grand Allliance SD."

Manticore isn't going to build its own "Bolthole," it is going to use Haven's existing facilities and help upgrade them to be able to deal with Manticoran miniaturizations.

Manticore will also be re-building the Unicorn Belt yards and other R&D facilities around Gryphon -- where their former "secret" yards were; those facilities would, of course, conform to your various points because they won't be a "Manticoran Bolthole," just the normal kind of secret R&D yards they've always maintained.

Weird Harold wrote:

rdelorme16 wrote:Manticore "Bolt hole"

There are some considerations that have not been brought up.
1) Manticore does not need to move its scientist to a "secret shipyard". The immediate need to build ships not develop secret tech.
2) The best place to build ships is where resources are readily available. For the massive hulls that would be an asteroid belt, but for the weapon systems that would be near a high tech industrial base. But most of a ships mass is armor and structural support. Thus secret "satellite yards" would serve the necessary function.

Those considerations don't really apply. The sole reason for a Manticore delegation to Bolthole is that Bolthole is no longer a secret R&D Facility, it is simply the center of Havenite shipbuilding with the resources and shipyards needed to install Manticoran Tech in Havenite ships and build hulls for Beowulf to install Keyhole II into to create a "Grand Allliance SD."

Manticore isn't going to build its own "Bolthole," it is going to use Haven's existing facilities and help upgrade them to be able to deal with Manticoran miniaturizations.

Manticore will also be re-building the Unicorn Belt yards and other R&D facilities around Gryphon -- where their former "secret" yards were; those facilities would, of course, conform to your various points because they won't be a "Manticoran Bolthole," just the normal kind of secret R&D yards they've always maintained.

A slight quibble, Bolthole is not a secret, but its location (within the text) still is. AFAIK "you will reveal its location to us" was the last mention of location.

To add to your excellent analysis, Manticore never had a "bolthole" their R&D was hidden in plain sight on Weyland. They will go to more dispersed yards instead of 3 huge sites, still not hidden on some red dwarf or brown giant system somewhere around Silesia or Cerebrus.

Weyland's R&D team is going to bolthole (1) because they have nowhere else to go, yet) and (2) to begin an alliance similar to that with Grayson.

One simple thing I've thought about...
The Ghostrider RDs can communicate either by FTL or laser, so why not have them directly communicate with missiles? They could use "raw" data to update terminal guidance in almost real time. They could relay low-bandwidth messages from the launcher via grav-pulse to the RD, then laser to the missiles.

-- Bob G

JohnRoth wrote:Given that RFC is planning on winding up the series in two more books, the last one to be issued in early 2018, I agree with KZT; there isn't time for anything major to come out of the hat.

Now, if the second series actually gets off the ground, we may see some interesting things.

Mostly because to do their jobs the drones will be closer to the target than the missile for 90-95% of flight time.

Since missile telemetry arrays are mounted on the rear end, they can't pick up signals from a drone even when it's inside the opening angle of the wedge until they are past it. At which point the drone would have to be pretty close to directly behind the missile to connect to it, and doing so would probably chew up most of the remaining flight time given how the time-dilation differential would complicate handshaking.

BobG wrote:One simple thing I've thought about...
The Ghostrider RDs can communicate either by FTL or laser, so why not have them directly communicate with missiles? They could use "raw" data to update terminal guidance in almost real time. They could relay low-bandwidth messages from the launcher via grav-pulse to the RD, then laser to the missiles.

-- Bob G