Cayleb and Merlin disagreement (possible spoilers)

The emperor priority is his people, while Merlin is focus on safehold as a whole. While breaking the power of the church is great, Merlin might not want Dohlar as badly smashed as they deserve for their acts against the empire. Thirsk has forced their industry and manufacture capabilities better than most other kingdoms. Merlin wants to encourage this and hope other kingdom mimic such changes. Sure the republic and the temple lands have similar improvements, but the more the better.
If there was a way to punish dohlar, yet keep Thirsk in place, or better yet increase his power, that would be a good compromise. Say Thirsk was away from the capital, yet the king and those opposed to Thirsk were there, then such a strike would be acceptable.

There will be an eventual confrontation, due to the development of the silkiah canal. Since it will be a key water way, then it is in the empires best interest to be heavily involved in it. And due to the fact dohlar is so close by, they are heavy competition.

Actually, IMO Cayleb is in agreement with Merlin concerning the "Good Of Safehold" and concerning the "Good Of The Empire".

While Merlin's mission involves all of Safehold, once he became active in Charis and Cayleb became his friend, Merlin is also concerned about the well being of Charis because of the friendships Merlin developed there.

Merlin "cares" for Cayleb & Charis and thus can't see them as "just pawns".

In addition, once Cayleb became a member of the Inner Circle, he also started thinking in terms of the "Good Of Safehold".

While the inventors/innovators working for the Church could be seen as dangers in terms of the "Good Of The Empire", Cayleb and the Inner Circle saw them as "off limits" because getting all of Safehold involved in innovation is part of Merlin's mission.

Of course, Merlin, Cayleb and the Inner Circle had occasions where they wished that the other-side's innovators weren't so good.

So IMO there won't be any Major Disagreements between Cayleb and Merlin in the foreseeable future as both are concerned about the Good of both Safehold & Charis.

SYED wrote:The emperor priority is his people, while Merlin is focus on safehold as a whole. While breaking the power of the church is great, Merlin might not want Dohlar as badly smashed as they deserve for their acts against the empire. Thirsk has forced their industry and manufacture capabilities better than most other kingdoms. Merlin wants to encourage this and hope other kingdom mimic such changes. Sure the republic and the temple lands have similar improvements, but the more the better.
If there was a way to punish dohlar, yet keep Thirsk in place, or better yet increase his power, that would be a good compromise. Say Thirsk was away from the capital, yet the king and those opposed to Thirsk were there, then such a strike would be acceptable.

There will be an eventual confrontation, due to the development of the silkiah canal. Since it will be a key water way, then it is in the empires best interest to be heavily involved in it. And due to the fact dohlar is so close by, they are heavy competition.

[quote="DrakBibliophile"]
In addition, once Cayleb became a member of the Inner Circle, he also started thinking in terms of the "Good Of Safehold".

/quote]

This, precisely!

Well, personally, it would be interesting plot twist, if, in some future, the goals of Merlin & Charis would divert radically, and Merlin would use the Dohlar to overcome the Charisian Empire...

DrakBibliophile wrote:
In addition, once Cayleb became a member of the Inner Circle, he also started thinking in terms of the "Good Of Safehold".

Problem is, that Inner Circle is not omnipotent, and no foolproof. What if, for example, next Charisian emperor (after Cayleb) would be of no good for Inner Circle? The main problem of aristocracy - there is absolutely no guarantee that even the best possible education &
upbringing could not guarantee that the next ruler would actually be good and competent. History knew quite a lot of dynasties, that crubmled just because on some point - despite the centuries-long education of heirs to the throne - the really stupid and incompetent king came to power. Romanov's dynasty, for example.

So, what it despite all Merlin effort, the next Emperor of Charis would be a weak, petty and incompetent men? Who would think that "my will is provided by divine support, as latter war clearly stated... and I don't need all those Seijins to lecture me constantly! It would all be as I say, beacuse only I knew, what is good for my peoples!"

Pretty interesting possible plot twist?

Dilandu wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:
In addition, once Cayleb became a member of the Inner Circle, he also started thinking in terms of the "Good Of Safehold".

Problem is, that Inner Circle is not omnipotent, and no foolproof. What if, for example, next Charisian emperor (after Cayleb) would be of no good for Inner Circle? The main problem of aristocracy - there is absolutely no guarantee that even the best possible education &
upbringing could not guarantee that the next ruler would actually be good and competent. History knew quite a lot of dynasties, that crubmled just because on some point - despite the centuries-long education of heirs to the throne - the really stupid and incompetent king came to power. Romanov's dynasty, for example.

So, what it despite all Merlin effort, the next Emperor of Charis would be a weak, petty and incompetent men? Who would think that "my will is provided by divine support, as latter war clearly stated... and I don't need all those Seijins to lecture me constantly! It would all be as I say, beacuse only I knew, what is good for my peoples!"

Pretty interesting possible plot twist?

The next Emperor of Charis will be Alahnah Zhanayt Naimu Ahrmahk. Who will be trained by not one but two of the strongest, intelligent, and competent rulers the world has seen. Not to mention that both Merlin Athrawes and Nimue Chwaeriau will be there to keep her (and subsequent rulers of the empire/planet) on the straight and narrow. After all, it is not like evil plotters will be able to sneak up on them and kill them under the guise of inviting them for tea.

So while it is true that some Ahrmahks in the past have been deemed unworthy of knowledge of the Brotherhood of Saint Zherneau, I doubt that in the future that will be allowed to happen.

Perhaps, should a future royal prince be deemed not worthy of rule, the existing Emperor/Empress will modify the rules of inheritance so that they can designate the Crown Prince/Princess as Henry VIII did, or Prince Hektor Daykyn wished that he could have.

Keith_w wrote:
The next Emperor of Charis will be Alahnah Zhanayt Naimu Ahrmahk. Who will be trained by not one but two of the strongest, intelligent, and competent rulers the world has seen.

Which, as history prove, means absolutely NOTHING)

Seriously, it's a biggest flaw of any monarchy; peoples aren't the tools that could be completely shaped at someone's will. Education, good example - this is important, but problem is, that quite a lot of weak, petto peoples, extremists or well-intentional fools were born and raised in rather good conditions.

So, unless you are ready to threw away all this "all peoples born equal" stuff, and start some pretty serious eugenic to create real superhuman - there always be perfect potential for just one fool to crash the mighty empire. Recall the history of Spain, the history of Russia, the history of China.

The real problems with monarchy, is that they are inherently non-foolproof. That's why they always cyclical.

Keith_w wrote: Not to mention that both Merlin Athrawes and Nimue Chwaeriau will be there to keep her (and subsequent rulers of the empire/planet) on the straight and narrow.

And it might perfectly be the reason that future emperor in his fisrt decree would order them to leave the palace and never came back. Quite a lot of good chancellors were dismissed by the new monarchs exactly because they saw what influence they have over their predecessors. Wilhelm II and Bismark, the best example.

Keith_w wrote:Perhaps, should a future royal prince be deemed not worthy of rule, the existing Emperor/Empress will modify the rules of inheritance so that they can designate the Crown Prince/Princess as Henry VIII did, or Prince Hektor Daykyn wished that he could have.

Clyntahn would clearly approve such thing. The example of Peter the Great (which also made a mistake by modifying the system so he could pass the throne by will) and subsequent events clearly shows that in that case Merlin & Co should start to take lessons in backstabbing, treason and court coups. I.e. Charis would have a
whirlpool of claims that "the will was faked", the quickly successive monarchs and military coups.

P.S. We also must not forgot, that with all this industrialization the power base of monarchy would be quickly diminished, and with large and sucsessfull military forces, the temptation to solve external problems with brute force would be next thing to irresistible.

Basically, the problem is, that history REALLY hate the "forever empires". History despise stability.

Dilandu wrote:

Keith_w wrote:
The next Emperor of Charis will be Alahnah Zhanayt Naimu Ahrmahk. Who will be trained by not one but two of the strongest, intelligent, and competent rulers the world has seen.

Which, as history prove, means absolutely NOTHING)

Seriously, it's a biggest flaw of any monarchy; peoples aren't the tools that could be completely shaped at someone's will. Education, good example - this is important, but problem is, that quite a lot of weak, petto peoples, extremists or well-intentional fools were born and raised in rather good conditions.

So, unless you are ready to threw away all this "all peoples born equal" stuff, and start some pretty serious eugenic to create real superhuman - there always be perfect potential for just one fool to crash the mighty empire. Recall the history of Spain, the history of Russia, the history of China.

The real problems with monarchy, is that they are inherently non-foolproof. That's why they always cyclical.

Charis has survived Kings not trusted with the big secret before, no reason not to again if necessary.

And it's not like Merlin and Nimue cannot go off and change their looks and return to Charis in a generation or so, or work other places to achieve their ultimate goal, which is to return mankind to the stars. The industrialization genie is out of the bottle. Nothing can put it back.

No, monarchies are not fool proof, both Corisande and Chisholm are proof of that Irwain III in Chisholm and Hector JR, in Corisande are proof of that. But that is what imperial advisors are for, not to mention royal cousins who rule their own lands as well.

Merlin is happy to enhance the empire into an industrial powerhouse, but to truly uplift the entirety of safehold, all the nations would need to mimic their effort.

There have been suggestions about how their economic change would destroy slavery and serfdom. I can see Merlin working on this together with his old friend, undermining harchong specificly.

With the war over, the merchant fleet would be free to trade, and so able to sell their goods at prices to greatly undercut the local market. The thing is this could cripple nations, so unable to renew their economies.

The republic, dohlar and south harchong might make the best effort to modernize. The republic and empire would have the funds necessary to uplift industries. And with the backing of the navy, no one would risk reneging on loans.