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(Spoilers - sorta) Predictions for Arc 2

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Re: (Spoilers - sorta) Predictions for Arc 2
Post by USMA74   » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:28 am

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EdThomas wrote:Let me put on my "Doubter's" hat and throw out some quick thoughts on what I've read here.
1. There's a lot of talk about "flying". The Proscription about flying seemed pretty straight forward. Once you cut the tether you're in blatant violation.

2. Electricity. Instrumentation and controls are going to be limited to hydraulics and pneumatics.
All these big guns and battlewagons are going to need longer range and more precise fire control systems. Balloons help with the range but I believe there was a pretty good discussion about the difficulty of developing fire control systems without electricity and my recollection is that it's well-nigh impossible.

Turrets to protect our big new guns can be operated with hydraulics or pneumatics but you have to connect them to our new fire control system and that's gonna be tough without electricity

Steam powered tanks seem to be a given. Steam powered submarines, IMHO, will be the next naval game-changer except for the problem of operating submerged with a steam engine. I believe diesel engines are possible but you're still going to need some sort of snorkel systems, and they ain't exactly stealthy.

Long range communication systems require electricity which won't be available until after the OBS and the Proscription are eliminated. There's also the small problem of getting the knowledge out of OWL and into Safeholdian hands to develop these electricity technologies.

Military developments are going to be restricted by the absence of a fast, long range communication systems. Machine guns and tanks are a given but communications is going to be a big mobility limiter for both land and naval forces.


Mechanical fire control computers using cams were standard equipment for the U.S. Army's M-60 series tanks equipped with the M68 105mm cannon. I could routinely hit a 3 meter by 3 meter piece of armor plate at a range of 4,000 meters with my tank's main gun when I was a tank platoon leader in the mid 70s. Admittedly I was firing from a short halt and the target was also stationary. Acknowledge that hitting a target moving in three dimensions at the same time the firing platform is also moving in three dimensions is just a touch more difficult. (As the MWW/RFC has often reminded us in this series.)
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Re: (Spoilers - sorta) Predictions for Arc 2
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:18 am

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So the major naval advancement will mechanical fire control computers, better optic sighting systems and signaling systems to better connect aerial platforms to the surface. The same applies on land but the systems need to be smaller, lighter and more portable.

I recall a post from RFC describing the difference in heat generation between IC tanks and steam tanks using a Doble uniflow engine. The heat generated was comparable and designing barriers and vents for a boiler explosion isn't insurmountable. That exercise is comparable to designing protection against fuel tanks explosions on IC tanks.

If dirigibles are forthcoming I wonder if someone will design gliders? Certainly parachutes as emergency escape devices. Gliders would be useful as spec ops insertion systems. Heck, they might actually develop high endurance gliders for scouting. They would be far less obvious.
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Re: (Spoilers - sorta) Predictions for Arc 2
Post by Bluesqueak   » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:44 am

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The Balloon Corps already have parachutes - one of the Corporals ostentatiously puts his on when they pass the required height.

Military gliders need either a tow from another aircraft (not possible until IC engines) or a winch to provide power for take off. A steam truck could do that.

Another method is 'shove the glider off a cliff', but it requires a convenient cliff (or cliff equivalent, like a high castle) - and possibly the equivalent of a bungee cord for some extra initial power.
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Re: (Spoilers - sorta) Predictions for Arc 2
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:50 am

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I was thinking gliders off of the dirigibles. The dirigible draws all the attention and the glider might well be unnoticed scouting an area. Retrieving the glider might be an issue, though.
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Re: (Spoilers - sorta) Predictions for Arc 2
Post by Bluesqueak   » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:16 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I was thinking gliders off of the dirigibles. The dirigible draws all the attention and the glider might well be unnoticed scouting an area. Retrieving the glider might be an issue, though.


Ah. Sorry, didn't realise that. Yes, glider launches off hot air balloons have certainly been done, so not impossible.
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Re: (Spoilers - sorta) Predictions for Arc 2
Post by EdThomas   » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:39 pm

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EdThomas wrote:1. There's a lot of talk about "flying". The Proscription about flying seemed pretty straight forward. Once you cut the tether you're in blatant violation.

My recollection, admittedly fuzzy :lol: is based on conversations early in the series about flight being limited to the Archangels or their helpers, whatever they were called, to allow them to move to communities around the planet. Early in the book, i think just after the first rakurai was unleashed, a messenger from the archangels goes to one of the communities on Lake Pei. My recollection is that somewhere in that discussion a prohibition of flight being reserved for the Archangels is mentioned.
Also, in the discussions of Seijin Khody I thought there was an exemption mentioned for the Seijins to fly.
THis is one of those times where one would rather be wrong. :)
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Re: (Spoilers - sorta) Predictions for Arc 2
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:15 pm

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Re-read that passage. No mention of restrictions beyond a lack of knowledge.

EdThomas wrote:
EdThomas wrote:1. There's a lot of talk about "flying". The Proscription about flying seemed pretty straight forward. Once you cut the tether you're in blatant violation.

My recollection, admittedly fuzzy :lol: is based on conversations early in the series about flight being limited to the Archangels or their helpers, whatever they were called, to allow them to move to communities around the planet. Early in the book, i think just after the first rakurai was unleashed, a messenger from the archangels goes to one of the communities on Lake Pei. My recollection is that somewhere in that discussion a prohibition of flight being reserved for the Archangels is mentioned.
Also, in the discussions of Seijin Khody I thought there was an exemption mentioned for the Seijins to fly.
THis is one of those times where one would rather be wrong. :)
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Re: (Spoilers - sorta) Predictions for Arc 2
Post by n7axw   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:32 pm

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I would like to see steam powered aircraft such as was demonstrated in the 1930s. That would be fun.

Also steam powered dirigibles (sp) like the 1632 series.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: (Spoilers - sorta) Predictions for Arc 2
Post by n7axw   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:32 pm

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I would like to see steam powered aircraft such as was demonstrated in the 1930s. That would be fun.

Also steam powered dirigibles (sp) like the 1632 series.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: (Spoilers - sorta) Predictions for Arc 2
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:50 pm

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EdThomas wrote:Steam powered tanks seem to be a given. Steam powered submarines, IMHO, will be the next naval game-changer except for the problem of operating submerged with a steam engine. I believe diesel engines are possible but you're still going to need some sort of snorkel systems, and they ain't exactly stealthy.


No electricity means minimal sonar.
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