SPOILERS AtSoT: Rose Reacts

::clears throat:: Ahem.

I WAS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT THIRSK AND DUCHAIRN.



Now that I have finished tapdancing in glee (both at being proven right and at getting to see my darlings kick so much arse), I can simply inform RFC that this was quite possibly the most satisfying instalment of anything I've ever read since MoH came out lo those many years ago, and I have zero criticisms of it. None whatsoever. It was utterly glorious in every respect.

So.... when do I get the next one?

Duchairn and the good Major Phandys!

I was extremely sure that Major Phandys wasn't the person Rayno thought he was.

Of course, I was not surprised about the contents of the letter that Hauwerd slipped Duchairn.

As far as Earl Thirsk goes, I'm not surprised by his actions and I wasn't surprised by Staiphan Maik's actions.

roseandheather wrote:::clears throat:: Ahem.

I WAS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT THIRSK AND DUCHAIRN.



Now that I have finished tapdancing in glee (both at being proven right and at getting to see my darlings kick so much arse), I can simply inform RFC that this was quite possibly the most satisfying instalment of anything I've ever read since MoH came out lo those many years ago, and I have zero criticisms of it. None whatsoever. It was utterly glorious in every respect.

So.... when do I get the next one?

roseandheather wrote:::clears throat:: Ahem.

I WAS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT THIRSK AND DUCHAIRN.



Now that I have finished tapdancing in glee (both at being proven right and at getting to see my darlings kick so much arse), I can simply inform RFC that this was quite possibly the most satisfying instalment of anything I've ever read since MoH came out lo those many years ago, and I have zero criticisms of it. None whatsoever. It was utterly glorious in every respect.

So.... when do I get the next one?

Thank you Rose. I agree 100% .. I got very frustrated with all the people criticizing the book in another thread. If we didn't get another book in this series, I would be happy with the way this one ended(I do want more, don't worry). It seems to me some people are never happy, so glad to see your post.

Welcome back. You have been missed.

roseandheather wrote:::clears throat:: Ahem.

I WAS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT THIRSK AND DUCHAIRN.



Now that I have finished tapdancing in glee (both at being proven right and at getting to see my darlings kick so much arse), I can simply inform RFC that this was quite possibly the most satisfying instalment of anything I've ever read since MoH came out lo those many years ago, and I have zero criticisms of it. None whatsoever. It was utterly glorious in every respect.

So.... when do I get the next one?

What was that Rose... didn't quite hear you??
Can you speak a bit louder??

I must say that I also thoroughly enjoyed it [having just finished it last night]

I have to say that I was not so convinced about Major P & Duchairn. OK - it was clear that he was not one of those brutal at heart types, but...

Could you more insightful types expound a bit on what lead you to that conviction? was it some textev or was it more a feeling [either is fine, I'm just interested]

isaac_newton wrote:

roseandheather wrote:::clears throat:: Ahem.

I WAS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT THIRSK AND DUCHAIRN.



Now that I have finished tapdancing in glee (both at being proven right and at getting to see my darlings kick so much arse), I can simply inform RFC that this was quite possibly the most satisfying instalment of anything I've ever read since MoH came out lo those many years ago, and I have zero criticisms of it. None whatsoever. It was utterly glorious in every respect.

So.... when do I get the next one?

What was that Rose... didn't quite hear you??
Can you speak a bit louder??

I must say that I also thoroughly enjoyed it [having just finished it last night]

I have to say that I was not so convinced about Major P & Duchairn. OK - it was clear that he was not one of those brutal at heart types, but...

Could you more insightful types expound a bit on what lead you to that conviction? was it some textev or was it more a feeling [either is fine, I'm just interested]

The big clue for me about Phandys was Hauwerd looking at him 'with something almost like gratitude'.

Put that together with the facts that Phandys finds the inserted boat request, Phandys goes to an Inquisition superior, Hauwerd kills the Inquisition superior but somehow can't manage to kill Phandys - and that Hauwerd had brought a sword to the breakfast with Samyl and it looks very like the timing and location of Hawerd's arrest was carefully planned. And not by Rayno or Clyntain.

But Hauwerd couldn't carefully plan it without an accomplice to make sure the inserted request was shown to the proper person at the proper time. He's too well liked in the Temple Guard; too much chance that somebody would have turned a blind eye to Vicars Hauwerd and Samyl making an escape attempt.

Then later on, Phandys is effectively offered promotion away from Duchairn's 'bodyguard' - and every single alternative he suggests just happens to be difficult to transfer from their current job.

With hindsight, I'd say the alternatives were probably also on Hauwerd's list - in case Rayno was determined to promote Phandys.

Going along with the below post, is that Duchairn seemed too casual about Phandys "spying" on him.

While we've seen David Weber characters accepting a spy on their activities (often because a spy they know about it useful), it just "seemed" that Duchairn never showed any concern about "what Phandys might see".

Bluesqueak wrote:

isaac_newton wrote:What was that Rose... didn't quite hear you??
Can you speak a bit louder??

I must say that I also thoroughly enjoyed it [having just finished it last night]

I have to say that I was not so convinced about Major P & Duchairn. OK - it was clear that he was not one of those brutal at heart types, but...

Could you more insightful types expound a bit on what lead you to that conviction? was it some textev or was it more a feeling [either is fine, I'm just interested]

The big clue for me about Phandys was Hauwerd looking at him 'with something almost like gratitude'.

Put that together with the facts that Phandys finds the inserted boat request, Phandys goes to an Inquisition superior, Hauwerd kills the Inquisition superior but somehow can't manage to kill Phandys - and that Hauwerd had brought a sword to the breakfast with Samyl and it looks very like the timing and location of Hawerd's arrest was carefully planned. And not by Rayno or Clyntain.

But Hauwerd couldn't carefully plan it without an accomplice to make sure the inserted request was shown to the proper person at the proper time. He's too well liked in the Temple Guard; too much chance that somebody would have turned a blind eye to Vicars Hauwerd and Samyl making an escape attempt.

Then later on, Phandys is effectively offered promotion away from Duchairn's 'bodyguard' - and every single alternative he suggests just happens to be difficult to transfer from their current job.

With hindsight, I'd say the alternatives were probably also on Hauwerd's list - in case Rayno was determined to promote Phandys.

All of the above plus a rather strong point is made about how the arresting guardsmen which incudes Phandys had served with Hauwerd and respected him.

Don

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n7axw wrote:All of the above plus a rather strong point is made about how the arresting guardsmen which includes Phandys had served with Hauwerd and respected him.

Don

-

We've known for several books that Phandys was "up to something," and it wasn't just being the spy who Rayno assigned to accompany Duchairn. Since he first appeared as the one who fingered the Wylsynn's escape attempt, then put on a fancy sword fight with Hauwerd while the rest of the squad sent to arrest the Wylsynns watched in awe, I figured Hauwerd had set the whole thing up. The "look of gratitude" was the clincher - Phandys kept the Inquisition from getting its hands on the Wylsynns, so he was obviously one of their supporters even though he had to kill Hauwerd to save him from the Question. I was rather surprised that Clyntahn didn't have him demoted for removing Hauwerd from the Inquisition's reach.

We've always wondered what was on the note that Hauwerd slipped to Duchairn. My guess was that it told him to trust Phandys, but I was absolutely stunned that it apparently included a list of Temple Guards he could trust in a fight against Clyntahn as well. That put the lives of every man on that list in incredible jeopardy if Hauwerd had been wrong about Duchairn's renewal of faith, or in his ability to defy Clyntahn and live. If Duchairn had been put to the Question, he'd have given them all up, and they'd have died for nothing. As it is, we aren't sure exactly what they did, although it's a good assumption that they were an integral part of Magwair and Duchairn's military coup that ended the Inquisition's control of Zion.

Phandys being unable to recommend someone to replace himself as Duchairn's keeper was a dead giveaway as well. I kept waiting for the scene where we'd catch them conspiring together. Clearly it happened off camera.

We got a bit of insight into some of what was going on between them in one of Duchairn's conversations with Magwair in ATSOT. Duchairn confided "Anyway, I’ve discovered I can use him as a sounding board in some ways. His poker face isn’t quite as good as he thinks it is, and his reactions to things I say sometimes offer me an insight into what Rayno's been discussing with him. And every so often some little tidbit of information oozes out of him without his realizing it."

Of course Duchairn knew that Phandys was intentionally feeding him information in that manner, although anyone who took that statement at face value didn't miss much. Even if Phandys was trying not to inadvertently give Duchairn information in public, he wasn't trying very hard - just enough to play dumb for public consumption.

I'm not sure how things would have turned out had Phandys not made contact with Ahrloh Mahkbyth and through him with Merlin and Nynian. Clearly they coordinated the Fist of God attacks with the military coup that Magwair staged, although I'd expect that it was led by many of Hauwerd's followers. It's clear based on when the first army troops arrived to storm the Temple that the day of the "spontaneous rebellion" was scheduled in advance: "Bishop Militant Dynnys Kradahck commanded the Holy Martyrs Training Camp, the main Army of God training facility twenty-two miles from the City of Zion. To have reached the city so soon he must have been summon ed by semaphore—or perhaps messenger wyvern — almost the moment the outbreaks began." Clyntahn, if you want control of all the military forces in Zion, don't let Magwair train his new soldiers whose loyalty is to their commanders and not you just 22 miles out of town!)

Between the army and the Fist of God, they decapitated the leadership of the Inquisition (often literally!) and managed to overthrow the forces loyal to Clyntahn in Zion. Phandys, Magwair, Duchairn, or someone on Hauwerd's list gave up the secret of the escape tunnel so Dialydd Mab and Gwyliwir Hwylio (Merlin and Nimue in their angel of death personas) were waiting for Clyntahn and the hundred members of his hand-picked Grand Inquisitor's guard at the exit, giving the seijins one final opportunity to show just how awesome they are with swords when vastly outnumbered. (But why didn't any of 100 hand picked bodyguards seem to have a gun?)

I about died laughing when I got to the line "It was over in a bare handful of seconds, before Rayno could have poured himself a cup of tea. And the only reason it had taken even that long, he realized, was because the killers had had to wait for the falling bodies to get out of the way." (Which probably says some rather disturbing things about me, but hey, seijins being badass!)

Rayno deserved a better ending than he got - a reverse Saruman/Wormtongue stab in the back from "The Lord of the Rings." By "better ending" I mean hanging by the neck next to Clyntahn after getting the same song and dance and hologram show from Merlin and Nimue that Clyntahn got. I'd have done it days before the hangings to let the message that everything they believed was a lie sink in, and in Rayno's case to realize just what a monster he was, since Clyntahn's reality is whatever he needs it to be and it seemed out of character for him to lose his smug attitude that whatever he wanted was God's will.

So I had a tough time swallowing Clyntahn's quick acceptance that the archangels and the CoGA were a fraud, despite him seeing holographic evidence that included several of the archangels he'd seen in the Inquisitions secret files. Perhaps the revelation that the Inquisition had the ability to view holograms of the Archangels wasn't as shocking to me as it would have been a few books ago, when Merlin was hands-off with the TF tech other than contact lenses and earplugs for the inner circle. Had we found out earlier that the Inquisition had secret visual records, we'd have been a lot more worried about what other technologies they might have, although nothing saved them when the crowd with torches and pitchforks showed up.

I'd have thought that removing Clyntahn from power and trying him like a common criminal would have been a bit more effective, since his it stripped him of his indulgent lifestyle and bloated self-importance. Unfortunately, his capacity for denying reality kept him believing that he was going to be Langhorne's best buddy in in the hereafter, and he was right!

So I was rather surprised that his arrogant self-assurance crumbled so quickly during movie night with the seijins. Obviously it wasn't the fact that the seijins could show him holograms - after all, he'd seen them in the secret archives of the Inquisition often enough that he recognized several of the Archangels. It was the conversation the Archangels were having that destroyed his world view. Bedard talked about human societies on another planet that had endured for thousands of years, when everyone on Safehold "knows" that time began on the Day of Creation. He literally saw the founders of the CoGA in a discussion that proved that the CoGA was a complete fraud created solely to keep humans from developing technology. He wasn't God's champion on Safehold, he wasn't the guardian of doctrinal purity, he was the attack dog of an organization that was as false as it was self-serving.

Had Clyntahn grown up knowing the Church was a farce, he'd probably have been happy to jump on board and enjoy the extravagent lifestyle it offered. But he was a true believer, and an absolute fanatic and sociopath who took his personal desires as being the same as God's will. Remove the foundation of God supporting him, and his zeal to have "heretics" tortured to cleanse their souls became merely sadism and murder. We understand that, but I didn't expect that Clyntahn would accept it. So all along I've been expecting he'd die in sort of the same way as the priest Mab pinned to the wall with a Charisian midshipman's dirk, with the assurance that Langhorne was waiting for him in Hell. Instead he died after stammering that he thought the Writ was true. (And I sure wish he'd yelled that as loudly as he could just before they hanged him!) THAT would have disconcerted the crowd quite a bit!

If anyone ever deserved the Punishment, he'd earned it in spades, and he actually looked down on his captors because they "lacked the courage—the strength of their own convictions—to send him to the Punishment." I suspect he'd have changed his opinion quickly as soon as someone walked in with the white-hot irons! He certainly lacked the bravado of thinking his captors were squeamish when he was surrounded by a hundred decapitated guards and Mab informed him that he'd be tried by Church law and would face the Punishment... at least! (Mab should have let him go on believing that during the entire voyage to Siddarmark!)

Moving on...

I called it on Thirsk ending up as regent, and unfortunately, that Duchairn would manage to grab the reins of the CoGA, which is Merlin's worst nightmare as we've discussed in other threads and which the inner circle discussed as well. More people may end up dying in the inevitable schismatic wars than would have died if the Fist of God, Hauwerd Wylsynn's army commanders, the incendiary broadsheets, and Mab and Nimue hadn't helped topple Clyntahn - but it was the humane choice. Besides, Magwair and Duchairn may have been able to seize control without their help, but Clyntahn probably would have escaped.

I finally understand why RFC put off the Battle of Gorath for so long, since he planned for it to be one of the final nails in Dohlar's coffin. I half expected that since I figured Thirsk would be regent and King Ronald would abdicate by the time the repercussions of the battle were over, although I expected some derring-do by a seijin or two in the royal palace to make sure King Ronald didn't escape. Bummer!

A couple of years ago RFC pointed out to me and PeterZ, since we'd been advocating that the ICN should get around to the little detail of paying Gorath a visit ever since MTaT at least, that the EoC had only so many ships and that they were otherwise occupied in say... shipping food, weapons, and troops to Siddarmark, escorting convoys, burning all the shipyards around the Gulf of Jahras, etc.

Of course it was WAY more cool to see a Haarahld VII blowing up the military infrastructure of Gorath city all by itself. I correctly predicted that the docks and everything involved with the army and navy within cannon range would be destroyed, although I thought they'd put at least ONE round into the palace or the palace grounds to remind King Ronald that YOU DO NOT TURN CHARISIAN POWS OVER TO THE INQUISITION!!! ESPECIALLY NOT TWICE!!!!

King Ronald abdicated as I expected, although I thought for a while they'd demand his head. Once we got the explanation a book or two ago that he was a putterer who really didn't WANT to be king, I realized that wasn't going to happen. If he'd defied Clyntahn and refused to turn over the Charisian POWs, he'd have been executed by the Inquisition, or possibly dragged off to Zion as an example for all the other rulers on Safehold of what happens to you if you defy the Inquisition.

Thirsk surprised me with the nasty, deadly defenses he designed for the approaches to Gorath. I expected him to have the fleet sail, then strike their colors en masse as soon as it became clear that no wooden ship could face an ironclad and survive. Instead he took all the men and guns off of them to stiffen the land defenses, laid naval mines, and set up the nastiest gauntlet the ICN ever faced. Perhaps Merlin should have suggested he take it easy on Charis when they came calling, since it was inevitable that Dohlar was going to lose so why make the admiral with whom they would sue for terms upset?

It would have been relatively blood free (for the Charisians) if Sarmouth had just gone ahead and told the gunners to aim high! Grumble, grumble, grumble. It ain't war porn if the good guys are getting hit hard, and the ironclads were taking a beating even before the rockets swarmed them, and the mine sweepers were being destroyed.

The morning after the rocket swarm, Sarmouth snarls to himself "if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying hard enough," he thought. "You forgot that one, Dunkyn, and now Hainz and all those other men are gone." His eyes hardened. Avoiding any appearance of “demonic intervention” had damned well better be worth it in the end.

That remained to be seen, but there was one thing he could do this morning, “demonic intervention” or not, and he really didn’t care if it compromised that political objective. He was through seeing his men die if it could be avoided."

Then he steamed right through the cleared part of the mine field (which tipped off Thirsk that he knew the mines were there) and blew up the military infrastructure of the entire city. Which choice would have seemed more "demonic?" (Yes, I realize he said "screw demonic intervention" specifically because the previous day he didn't order the ships loaded with rockets that he couldn't "see" destroyed before the balloon observer reported them.)

Based on "1634:The Baltic War" I expected the spar torpedoes or floating mines to take out at least one ship, which they did after it was smashed by rockets and had lost the crew and machinery to steer it. Leaving those rockets intact until they were "observed" was my BIGGEST pet peeve with this book. If you know there are rockets on the far side of the island that you are alreadyshelling because you've seen them through the SNARCs, you do NOT need to wait for a warning from the balloon overhead to tell your gunners to shoot a bit long to avoid the appearance of demonic intervention!
Yet Sarmouth tried just a bit too hard to avoid having yet another of his "hunches," although it must have been absolutely clear to the observer in the balloon after rocket attack that his admiral knew there was something fishy about the boats on the far side of the island - boats that he had never seen! Is he going to keep his mouth shut about that? Two ironclads were destroyed and hundreds of men were killed, and it was utterly and completely unnecessary! (So yeah, the idiot in the balloon probably will keep his mouth shut since he screwed the pooch!)

I suppose RFC set it up that way to show that the ICN wasn't going to have it all their own way, but we knew that because they'd shown up with mine sweepers that got blown up. Sarmouth didn't anticipate that his ironclad captains would try to protect the sweepers, so he didn't give the order to take out the rockets only he (and the oblivious observer in the balloon above) could see before they became a threat. I understand why he waited to make the call, but if I were looking through the SNARCs and saw the rocket boats, my next note to the balloon would have asked what if anything was located on the far side of the island, including any kind of boat. Plus Nahrmahn was sending in remotes to blow up the boats, and that was certainly a more "demonic" action than Sarmouth telling his gunners to aim high for a few volleys - although if the remotes had arrived in time and blown up the boats, everyone would have thought they'd just been shelled. I found that entire situation unnecessary, with apologies to RFC, since it's his sandbox and he invites us to play in it. People screw up in war, and the observer saw what he was meant to see and didn't think to pass it on, which didn't give Sarmouth a reason to fire over the island to take out the rocket boats. But boy was the balloon observer dense!

On the other hand, the entire attack on Gorath had me on the edge of my seat, and the aftermath was everything I'd hoped for. Plus I was right about Thirsk becoming regent and Ronald abdicating, so I'll take it as a win.

I wanted Clyntahn to die knowing that he was going to Hell, and that happened. After nine books of watching him commit greater and greater atrocities, I suppose that almost everyone had an opinion of what sort of painful, nasty, messy death he deserved, and since the good guys wanted to remain good, they didn't get their hands dirty and they got the benefit of a trial that exposed the massive corruption in the vicarate - which ultimately helped Duchairn cleanse it and is only going to make things tougher down the road for Merlin's plans to expose the CoGA as a boil on the butt of the universe that needs a severe lancing. Finally, a use for The Weapon That Shall Not Be Named from the Honorverse! (That's a grav lance for those unfamiliar with "On Basilisk Station.)

Y'know, it's finally occurred to me that Paityr Wylsyn and his father Samyl Wylsyn were both Schulerites, with Samyl being so high up in the Order that he was nearly Grand Vicar ...

... of course Merlin and Nimue knew about that tunnel.