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The death of civilized discussion

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Re: The death of civilized discussion
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:54 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:And suggested state?


Yes, you were highly SUGGESTIVE about what you meant, but you didn´t actually say it, so yes, "suggested".
And as long as you do not outright specify, i will not assume which one you meant no matter how likely or not.

Michael Everett wrote:However, since the first point of settlement was explicitly described as a Religion-based Commune and there is a large overlap between Commune and Socialist, the term just about fits.


*urk*

No, just seriously NO!!! Please don´t make hideously *beep* *beep* *beep* *beep* mistakes like that!

That´s like calling gated communities communist states. Or calling prisons gated communities.

You might score some points using it for a joke or as sarcasm, but it´s a dreadful comparison.

Michael Everett wrote:None of the posters from the country in question have complained about it, so there must be at least some accuracy to the application of the term.


That´s most likely because you´re being too obscure.
I still have at least 7 relevant candidates for the suggested country, although i don´t know of any posters here from 3 of them.

You´re not making nearly as much sense as you think.

In comparison, you might want to realise that municipality translates in Swedish to "kommun" and it has absolutely nil and zero to do with socialism.
Same with Italian comuni, French communes, Danish kommune, Romanian comuna... All of which means roughly the same thing, local government in a small region.

It´s like saying that because a town has a commons, it´s socialist.
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Re: The death of civilized discussion
Post by Imaginos1892   » Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:29 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:
Imaginos1892 wrote:Have we ever seen a socialist state that did not turn into totalitarian communism?


That question merely shows a staggering degree of ignorance.

There have been no "socialist" states.

It is clear that you do not even understand the word ‘socialism’. To save you having to look it up, a task that is obviously far too difficult for you, here is the definition:

Socialism: An economic system in which the government controls the means of production.


To put it into even smaller words, just for you, it means that the government owns the farms, the mines, the mills, the factories, and operates them with typical government efficiency. Those in power wind up appointing their cronies to run things, whether they are competent to do so or not. When people object to the mismanagement, they are revolting against the government. Call out the army!

Notable in the news these days is the democratic socialist utopia of Venezuela (hey, they have elections...sometimes), where after ten years they have almost finished ‘nationalizing’ everything, they have indeed put the army in charge, and isn’t that working out well for them? Calling Venezuela a ‘utopia’ may sound sarcastic, but really, it’s not. That’s about as good as socialism gets.

I have my own definition of socialism: giving the takers power over the makers. I do not consider that a good idea.

The purpose of government is to force people to do things they do not want to do. That is why we have governments, and why governments have armies and police, spies and surveillance. When that power is used to prevent criminals from committing robbery, rape and murder, to prevent foreign forces from invading the country, it is good. When it is used to prevent people from speaking freely and choosing how to live their own lives, it is evil.

No corporation, however big and powerful it may be, can legally take your money and property, imprison or kill you. The government can.

When the government also has the power to dictate where you work, how much you are paid, what products you can buy, and at what prices — where does freedom remain? All of those things follow inevitably from ‘the government controls the means of production’.
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Re: The death of civilized discussion
Post by Annachie   » Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:21 pm

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Close Imaginos. But not quite.

Over simply put, it's where the PEOPLE own and or control the means and distribution of production.

And I'm willing to bet that every single poster here has part ownership in more than one company that produces/makes/or distributes things.

Shares.

People control.

As the Americans have pointed out, people control through the government THAT THEY ELECT.

Of course America is rapidly heading to a point where the people are loosing control, and into a Plutocracy, having just elected damn near the ultimate plutocrat, and we all should know where plutocracy heads.

So I suppose it's fair to say that America was a socialist country (capitalism being a form of socialism) that is now rapidly heading into dangerous waters.

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Re: The death of civilized discussion
Post by Imaginos1892   » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:38 am

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Maybe in theory, under some interpretations, but in practice it always winds up being the government. And it always seems to end up like Venezuela, or worse.
-------------------
Under Capitalism, man exploits man.
Under Socialism, it's the other way around
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Re: The death of civilized discussion
Post by Daryl   » Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:58 am

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As was once said the USA and Britain, two countries divided by a common language.
To me socialism is having a welfare and health net, that prevents people from starving from lack of money, or dying from lack of basic medical support.
Most developed countries (Europe, Australasia, Canada etc) have had that system for around a century without collapsing into a Haven Dolist nightmare, and have maintained a free press and democracy.
Imaginos, your socialism sounds to me like a totalitarian nightmare. regardless of left or right. I wonder about the education system that produced that mind set in an obviously intelligent person.
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Re: The death of civilized discussion
Post by Annachie   » Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:06 am

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Yeah Daryl. We have to remember that the McCarthy era happened in America, and ole Joe permanantly liked Socialism to Marxist/Lenninist communism in the American mind.

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Re: The death of civilized discussion
Post by Imaginos1892   » Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:58 am

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I see. You are all making up your own definitions of socialism, which are less evil than the real one.
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Re: The death of civilized discussion
Post by Tenshinai   » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:01 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:Maybe in theory, under some interpretations, but in practice it always winds up being the government. And it always seems to end up like Venezuela, or worse.


Right, so Venezuela was so much better off back in the good old days when a few thousand people owned just about everything, while for everyone else, unimportant little things like healthcare, education or sheer survival was something to struggle for?

Venezuela is almost a posterboy for what US "covert" intervention does to a nation.
Oh yay, lets prop up some nice rich kids and have them rule the nation as long as they sell us cheap raw materials. Colonialism at nearly its most disgusting.
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Re: The death of civilized discussion
Post by Tenshinai   » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:02 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:I see. You are all making up your own definitions of socialism, which are less evil than the real one.


No, we actually try to use the REAL WORLD factual definition, without the rabid prejudice you prefer to glue on.
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Re: The death of civilized discussion
Post by Tenshinai   » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:05 am

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Annachie wrote:Yeah Daryl. We have to remember that the McCarthy era happened in America, and ole Joe permanantly liked Socialism to Marxist/Lenninist communism in the American mind.

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In any democratic nation, McCarthy would have been kicked out before he ever got a chance to start his witchhunts and purge by SUSPICION of political CONTACTS.

Seriously, the persecution at the time was just on a disgusting level.
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