Raul Alexander-Harrington

Would it not be prudent for who ever designed the Meyerdahl modifications to also add in modifications to lessen the risks of lower gravity environments to their creation.

pnakasone wrote:Would it not be prudent for who ever designed the Meyerdahl modifications to also add in modifications to lessen the risks of lower gravity environments to their creation.

IMO, I think not - without redesigning the human body. It would be asking too much of the method. In a nutshell, it would be like modifying the blood vessels to be able to both greatly restrict and widen much more, naturally.

Of course, I could be the nut-in-a-shell — saving anyone from having to call me a nut.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I disagree. It isn't so simple to handwave away. I only cited the reference to astronauts as an exhibit to the kinds of problems faced. The Mars trilogy really did the subject some justice. Prolonged periods of time are not as long as you may think.

Also, what happens when there are ships shared by crew of different planets?

For that matter, why weren't there many deaths on Hades amongst, for one, the San Martinos and one Mateo's son? There were different races on Hades for quite some time.

Edit:
It isn't just an extended exposure to weightlessness. It is an extended exposure to a significant difference in native gravity. A "significant difference" is common place in the Honorverse. And you shouldn't read too much into "significant difference" or "extended periods" for that matter.

I'd argue that most people in the Honorverse actually don't live on planets with significant differences in Gravity. Mars is 1/3 the gravity of Earth; that's pretty significant, but most planets in the Honorverse seem to be in the 0.8 - 1.2 gravity range. That's not so significant.

If you threw prisoners from a 0.8 gee world on the extremely high gravity (2.7 gees) San Martin and expected them to be able to move around you might expect some significant injuries or even deaths. But going the other way is unlikely to cause issues until you suddenly move back to the heavy grav environment.
True microgravity can cause bone loss issues even in fully grown people that are very slow to recover, but somewhat reduced gravity is not thought to cause those issues to the same extent.

But the nice thing about grav plates is you can adjust them room by room, and you can slowly scale up the gravity to work your way back up to your normal baseline. You'd still be having issues (unless Honorverse medical nanotech can deal with the bone density issues in a way that current tech can't) if you were spending a month or more in zero g, but spending it at 0.8 gees when you're used to 1.1 gees (or even 2 gees) should cause far less degradation than microgravity.


But I admit that's a laymen's understanding. Though I would say that nobody has data on prolonged exposure to somewhat reduced gravity. We've got tons of data about 1g, and a moderate amount about 1 - 12 month stays in 0g. But basically non about 0.3g or 0.8g or 1.2g - so I believe a fair bit of this is speculation on all parts.

Perhaps we do have data on what would happen if we move from a much higher gravity to a much lower gravity — even if intuited or inferred by implication. On San Martin, as you've acknowledged, it would be very difficult for the average human to move whereas Tomas Ramirez, while hailing from there, would find it rather natural. However, if Tomas spent any extended periods on a much lower gravity — as was Hades, then he'd find it much too easy to move around. His dense musculature would find it hard pressed to gain a normal workout. Before long, his muscles would begin to atrophy (one of the effects on exhibit). The heart is a muscle. Talk about an example on steroids of a heart attack being the silent killer. Atrophication of the muscles can happen — even without changing gravities - right here on Earth— from lack of exercise, lack of movement. On Hades, poor Ramirez would've had to've constantly wrestled with a few dozen State Sec goons simultaneously to keep his collective body engine and its massive internal support structure running. He would have had to swim around like a shark "never sleeping" but constantly in motion in search of a workout so he can eat and breathe. LOL

It is akin to weightlifters constantly working out and building up muscle mass. They have to workout to maintain that muscle mass or watch the muscles disappear from a lack of use. On Hades, Tomas would have the problem that a man would have standing on a scale made to weigh large trucks at weight. There has to be a certain amount of weight before it'll even register. On Hades, I suspect that Tomas' would suffer enough of the symptoms of weightlessness — especially over the prolonged timeframe represented on Hades.

"You don't understand! I'm not being intransigent. If I don't bust some heads on an hourly basis, I'll eventually die. Are there any more of you? I need to take on all of you at once!" Ok, I exaggerate for effect, but not too much.

I feel as if I've an unfair advantage having read Kim Stanley Robinson's masterpiece and you haven't. If you haven't. And anyone who thinks that David did the subject matter justice — hasn't.

I bet the human element is due for a visit here soon as well. How long was Carmichael on Old Earth — as an example of the common need for humanity to interchange native environments. How long did Honor negotiate on Haven —as another example of this need? They didn't talk to each other from sealed off rooms. Estelle Matsuko on Basilisk had to live on planet to have her ear constantly pressed to the ground — as another example of the human element of not being separated by grav plates. The thing is, I can believe that the human body can be genetically altered to thrive in a higher gravity, but at the expense of limited exposure to a lower gravity.

And I think we should caution ourselves of basing everything on bottom line absolutes. Life just doesn't work that way says the human element. Let's take the example I used. People born and grown as far south as Florida or the Carolinas will have a problem acclimating to the altitude of Denver. But not everyone will find it as difficult. But lasting for months? Some football players wash out long before that. Some wash out before the first cut. Weeks. Oftentimes, it is plenty obvious on the first day of tryouts that some are not going to "cut it." Pun intended. Before drugs were introduced on the scene to help alleviate the breathing problem. Then later banned. Simply to show the stubbornness of the human body.

This is how I see it anyways.

The Mars Trilogy is a masterpiece to read, IMO. It is chock full of scientific research. No handwavium present here. In fact, it has so much information that it may border on overkill to many. In fact, a poster here informed me that he felt it rather difficult to read for that very same fact. He disliked it, in essence, for the same reason that Star Trek was initially cancelled in the 70's. It was deemed too cerebral. At any rate, this is my personal take on it, though distorted it may be. Yet, I can always point the finger and blame it on the other fella, Kim Stanley Robinson.

cthia wrote:
I feel as if I've an unfair advantage having read Kim Stanley Robinson's masterpiece and you haven't. If you haven't. And anyone who thinks that David did the subject matter justice — hasn't.

Nice assumption. Too bad it's wrong. I've also read the Stardancer books, which deal quite a bit with the effects of extended weightlessness.

Sure, San Martinos will lose a lot of their enhanced strength by living for an extended period in a lower gravity environment, but I think you're forgetting something: They're all, including Honor and Raoul, genetically enhanced. Something none of the colonists in the Mars trilogy were. They have higher metabolisms to maintain the bone and muscle strength required to handle higher grav situations, with the accompanying higher appetite.

Frankly, I don't think the situation is as dire as you're making it out to be. Sure, we humans now have to deal with that sort of thing, but in David's 'verse, they've already dealt with it, in one form or another.

cthia wrote:I feel as if I've an unfair advantage having read Kim Stanley Robinson's masterpiece and you haven't. If you haven't. And anyone who thinks that David did the subject matter justice — hasn't.

MaxxQ wrote:Nice assumption. Too bad it's wrong. I've also read the Stardancer books, which deal quite a bit with the effects of extended weightlessness.

I can appreciate that Maxx. I sure haven't read that particular offering. It sounds interesting.

MaxxQ wrote:Sure, San Martinos will lose a lot of their enhanced strength by living for an extended period in a lower gravity environment, but I think you're forgetting something: They're all, including Honor and Raoul, genetically enhanced. Something none of the colonists in the Mars trilogy were. They have higher metabolisms to maintain the bone and muscle strength required to handle higher grav situations, with the accompanying higher appetite.

Frankly, I don't think the situation is as dire as you're making it out to be. Sure, we humans now have to deal with that sort of thing, but in David's 'verse, they've already dealt with it, in one form or another.

You have misassimilated either of my posts. I'm not sufficiently versed in genetics or any of its related fields to "really" have an informed opinion one way or the other. I won't assume that you don't. I do, however, have the good fortune of listening in on several occasions of Honorverse fans who happen to be MDs. And Andreea and Simone, both Romanian, are not geneticists but Andreea is a neurosurgeon involved heavily in neurogenetics. Simone is involved heavily in "inheritance research" (whatever the heck that may be). The remaining nine of my Romanian friends are all MDs. And they don't feel as if genetic enhancement will be able to encompass the latitude of varying gravities in the Honorverse simultaneously. Enhancement for either or, yes, but not to go back and forth without other serious complications and without seriously impacting human features to the point of being inhuman. They should explain this themselves. Oh how I wish. I will only mangle their expertise.

My position on it, was and still stands, is that I don't think that David did the subject justice. BUT! I really don't expect him too. This is space opera, not space medicine. And in space opera a simple "genetic enhancement" will serve as a placeholder for such.

EDIT:

They have higher metabolisms to maintain the bone and muscle strength required to handle higher grav situations, with the accompanying higher appetite.

Oh! Forgot to include my niece's two cents.

This would prove to work against him. Those modifications work on a higher grav planet. They would have no benefit for Mateo on Hades. In fact, it would work against him, being that metabolism requires certain processes to work itself - such as food and exercise. Neither of which was available in sufficient quantities for Mateo.

Mateo would have ended up looking worse than Honor in short order after she was rescued. Starved and gaunt and headed for certain death. I missed that point. My niece didn't.

.

I wonder if they will ever get access to the Megsan genetic database. They might have a central depository of their genetic enhancements and treatments. That would be a very valuable find.

MaxxQ wrote:

cthia wrote:
I feel as if I've an unfair advantage having read Kim Stanley Robinson's masterpiece and you haven't. If you haven't. And anyone who thinks that David did the subject matter justice — hasn't.

Nice assumption. Too bad it's wrong. I've also read the Stardancer books, which deal quite a bit with the effects of extended weightlessness.

Sure, San Martinos will lose a lot of their enhanced strength by living for an extended period in a lower gravity environment, but I think you're forgetting something: They're all, including Honor and Raoul, genetically enhanced. Something none of the colonists in the Mars trilogy were. They have higher metabolisms to maintain the bone and muscle strength required to handle higher grav situations, with the accompanying higher appetite.

Frankly, I don't think the situation is as dire as you're making it out to be. Sure, we humans now have to deal with that sort of thing, but in David's 'verse, they've already dealt with it, in one form or another.

Obviously, the genemods being competent insure that a San Martino does *not* need to be in high gravity to maintain physical conditioning. Indeed, it is a fair bet that *most* people have modest genemods such that they do not go out of normal physical condition because gravity is different, though extreme physical conditioning is specified by textev to need exercise to support.

cthia wrote:I feel as if I've an unfair advantage having read Kim Stanley Robinson's masterpiece and you haven't. If you haven't. And anyone who thinks that David did the subject matter justice — hasn't.

MaxxQ wrote:Nice assumption. Too bad it's wrong. I've also read the Stardancer books, which deal quite a bit with the effects of extended weightlessness.

cthia wrote:I can appreciate that Maxx. I sure haven't read that particular offering. It sounds interesting.

MaxxQ wrote:Sure, San Martinos will lose a lot of their enhanced strength by living for an extended period in a lower gravity environment, but I think you're forgetting something: They're all, including Honor and Raoul, genetically enhanced. Something none of the colonists in the Mars trilogy were. They have higher metabolisms to maintain the bone and muscle strength required to handle higher grav situations, with the accompanying higher appetite.

Frankly, I don't think the situation is as dire as you're making it out to be. Sure, we humans now have to deal with that sort of thing, but in David's 'verse, they've already dealt with it, in one form or another.

cthia wrote:You have misassimilated either of my posts. I'm not sufficiently versed in genetics or any of its related fields to "really" have an informed opinion one way or the other. I won't assume that you don't. I do, however, have the good fortune of listening in on several occasions of Honorverse fans who happen to be MDs. And Andreea and Simone, both Romanian, are not geneticists but Andreea is a neurosurgeon involved heavily in neurogenetics. Simone is involved heavily in "inheritance research" (whatever the heck that may be). The remaining nine of my Romanian friends are all MDs. And they don't feel as if genetic enhancement will be able to encompass the latitude of varying gravities in the Honorverse simultaneously. Enhancement for either or, yes, but not to go back and forth without other serious complications and without seriously impacting human features to the point of being inhuman. They should explain this themselves. Oh how I wish. I will only mangle their expertise.

My position on it, was and still stands, is that I don't think that David did the subject justice. BUT! I really don't expect him too. This is space opera, not space medicine. And in space opera a simple "genetic enhancement" will serve as a placeholder for such.

EDIT:

They have higher metabolisms to maintain the bone and muscle strength required to handle higher grav situations, with the accompanying higher appetite.

Oh! Forgot to include my niece's two cents.

This would prove to work against him. Those modifications work on a higher grav planet. They would have no benefit for Mateo on Hades. In fact, it would work against him, being that metabolism requires certain processes to work itself - such as food and exercise. Neither of which was available in sufficient quantities for Mateo.

Mateo would have ended up looking worse than Honor in short order after she was rescued. Starved and gaunt and headed for certain death.

I missed that point. My niece didn't.

Actually, it invokes images of Mateo looking like a starving child on one of those "third world" commercials. The State Sec goons didn't supply enough food for "normal" prisoners as it were. Poor Mateo would have had to become a bully and take people's lunch. The problem with the high metabolisms is that they have to constantly be fed. Honor's caloric intake is through the roof but bottomed out while aboard Tepes and became rather tepid.

My niece jokingly says that Mateo would have arrived on planet already having lost many a pound but still looking like Brutus on Popeye. But in short order would have looked like Olive Oyl. LOL

pnakasone wrote:Oh Raul will likely spend a solid chunk of time at the Harrington freehold on Sphinx growing up.

And on Grayson

Will we see Raoul academy years or start from his first ship board posting? It is said the more junior officers run the Lac, so we might see more about the running of those ships. Just how honor once commanded on of them, he might have the same.