SPOILER- Thank you so very much RFC for AtSoT!-SPOILER

evilauthor wrote:

dobriennm wrote:I'm not necessarily sure that the Inquisition's imagery includes the room. After all, Clyntahn didn't mentally say he recognized the room,

Uh, I'm pretty sure Clyntahn DID mentally say that he recognized the room.

Ah, here we go. Page 733 in the Kindle Fire version.

the image of a breezy room appeared before him, no more than two feet tall, but perfectly detailed. He'd seen images like it in the Temple, in the Inquisition's secret records, and he heard someone whimpering with his voice as he recognized many of the faces in that room.

You'll note that the way the text is laid out, he recognized THE ROOM first and then the faces. It's clearly the room as there's a definite change in subject matter when his attention goes from room to people in the room.

I interpret the "He'd seen images like it" to mean that he had seen projections before. If DWW had meant that that Clyntahn had actually seen the room, he probably would have written "He had seen that image before" etc. So, he hadn't seen the room, he hadn't seen the archangels sitting down around a conference table arguing about the goal and he definitely hadn't seen Shan-wei before. Additionally please consider that this room gets blown up by a pocket nuke, so there is a minimal likelihood that it would be included in anything the surviving archangels would provide for the inquisition's files.

Keith_w wrote:I interpret the "He'd seen images like it" to mean that he had seen projections before. If DWW had meant that that Clyntahn had actually seen the room, he probably would have written "He had seen that image before" etc. So, he hadn't seen the room, he hadn't seen the archangels sitting down around a conference table arguing about the goal and he definitely hadn't seen Shan-wei before. Additionally please consider that this room gets blown up by a pocket nuke, so there is a minimal likelihood that it would be included in anything the surviving archangels would provide for the inquisition's files.

I agree with your interpretation of "He'd seen images like it" as "seen projections" (that's the way I interpreted it originally, you said it better than me).

But (just nit picking) he did recognize Shan-Wei's image though not her voice. So somehow he's seen her image (electronic, sculpture, or paper picture/portrait) but hasn't heard her voice.

dobriennm wrote:

Keith_w wrote:I interpret the "He'd seen images like it" to mean that he had seen projections before. If DWW had meant that that Clyntahn had actually seen the room, he probably would have written "He had seen that image before" etc. So, he hadn't seen the room, he hadn't seen the archangels sitting down around a conference table arguing about the goal and he definitely hadn't seen Shan-wei before. Additionally please consider that this room gets blown up by a pocket nuke, so there is a minimal likelihood that it would be included in anything the surviving archangels would provide for the inquisition's files.

I agree with your interpretation of "He'd seen images like it" as "seen projections" (that's the way I interpreted it originally, you said it better than me).

But (just nit picking) he did recognize Shan-Wei's image though not her voice. So somehow he's seen her image (electronic, sculpture, or paper picture/portrait) but hasn't heard her voice.

I believe all the Arch-Angels images are engraved in the temple, even Shan-Wei's. I am sure there is text-ev for that however, I don't think I am going to re-read all the previous books to find that

evilauthor wrote:So since this seems to be the ONLY thread marked with spoilers so far, I thought I'd drop my thoughts on the book here. So... spoilers!

If you didn't want to be spoiled, what are you doing here?


Anyway...

There's way too much stuff in this book for me to comment on everything, so I'll stick to what comes to mind.

Minor thing: Balloons. BAD RFC! Hot Air Balloons were apparently a known thing long before the current conflict ever erupted. But this information isn't given to the reader until the Temple/Harchong armies are already reacting to the Charisian deployment of observation ballooons.

So the only real Charisian innovation here was the use of hydrogen gas, not the whole balloon concept itself. That's a MUCH smaller step than the snippets made it appear to be.

OTOH, I called it! They're JUST observation balloons. Who needs to build bombers when observation alone allows you to see everything the enemy has and is doing and lets you direct mass artillery fire on them?

Meanwhile, although the war itself was a slog, the ending was more or less perfect. I was surprise - and shouldn't have been - when the broadsheets were used to coordinate and set off a popular uprising in Zion. Not to mention the reveal of what Hauwerd Wylsynn REALLY gave Duchairn.

But the real perfection was Merlin's decision to support the uprising. It perfectly encapsulated why they're the GOOD GUYS and not just another morally grey faction in a war. They're the Good Guys because they do the Right Thing, even if that Thing makes their long term goals harder to obtain.

It perfectly juxtaposes Clyntahn's and the entire CoGA's philosophy of throwing EVERYTHING - every good and right value they ever had - under the bus in pursuit of some nebulous "greater good". And as we see with the CoGA and Clyntahn, that kind of ruthlessness is ultimately self sabotaging.

While I agree that everyone on Safehold knew about the balloons but us , the way that the DO NOT INNOVATE mind set was so established that everyone who heard about them when the ICA brought them out only stated that "they could not stay aloft so long" because they could not hold enough fuel... NO ONE saw the advantage for warfare till too late.

If You ain't cheating... you ain't trying hard enough"

PeterZ wrote:Lyonheart,

I think you are right. Green Tree Island will become a haven for escaped slaves as South Harchong grows more liberal and the MH conquers Desnair. I don't think Stonahr will want the MH anywhere on Haven. Can't say that Thirsk or Ahlvarez would like that any more than Stonahr. The most likely location is down south. So many birds may be hit with that large stone.

That argues Green Tree Island will continue to receive immigrants from South Harchong but not diplomatic recognition. That and the need for coaling stations suggests that the EoC will indeed extend its protection. What form that protection takes will be interesting to see.

Now, what other geopolitical themes will develop in the next two decades?

The floor is open....

If I were the Protector, the notion of settling a million plus Harchongese who are going to be TLs would not be a very attractive idea. Nor would the return of those Siddarmarkians who valued their loyalty to the Temple above their citizenship in the Republic. I think I would tell them to regard the Temple Lands their permanent home....

Don

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This is going to be a _very_ tricky one: many of the Siddarmarkians now west of the AoG lines will have gotten there because they valued their loyalty to _breathing_ above their citizenship. And didn't get involved in the 'dish your neighbour so you can grab his prize dragon' game after the AoG moved in - which marks them as better than average, actually. Clearing out to the west wasn't optional for civilians. By the same token, many of those in the camps went in as convinced Loyalists. Some not only still will be, but will blame the Republic bitterly for what they suffered. You want to be the one who welcomes the latter and tells the former to go pound sand?

n7axw wrote: Nor would the return of those Siddarmarkians who valued their loyalty to the Temple above their citizenship in the Republic. I think I would tell them to regard the Temple Lands their permanent home....

Don

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Louis R wrote:This is going to be a _very_ tricky one: many of the Siddarmarkians now west of the AoG lines will have gotten there because they valued their loyalty to _breathing_ above their citizenship. And didn't get involved in the 'dish your neighbour so you can grab his prize dragon' game after the AoG moved in - which marks them as better than average, actually. Clearing out to the west wasn't optional for civilians. By the same token, many of those in the camps went in as convinced Loyalists. Some not only still will be, but will blame the Republic bitterly for what they suffered. You want to be the one who welcomes the latter and tells the former to go pound sand?

n7axw wrote: Nor would the return of those Siddarmarkians who valued their loyalty to the Temple above their citizenship in the Republic. I think I would tell them to regard the Temple Lands their permanent home....

Don

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The discussion isn't about the ones who found themselves sent to the camps. It's about the ones who refugeed out ahead of the allied armies. However the distinction between voluntarily refugees and being forcibly evacuated is a valid point. That won't be easy to sort out.

Don

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dobriennm wrote:

Keith_w wrote:I interpret the "He'd seen images like it" to mean that he had seen projections before. If DWW had meant that that Clyntahn had actually seen the room, he probably would have written "He had seen that image before" etc. So, he hadn't seen the room, he hadn't seen the archangels sitting down around a conference table arguing about the goal and he definitely hadn't seen Shan-wei before. Additionally please consider that this room gets blown up by a pocket nuke, so there is a minimal likelihood that it would be included in anything the surviving archangels would provide for the inquisition's files.

I agree with your interpretation of "He'd seen images like it" as "seen projections" (that's the way I interpreted it originally, you said it better than me).

But (just nit picking) he did recognize Shan-Wei's image though not her voice. So somehow he's seen her image (electronic, sculpture, or paper picture/portrait) but hasn't heard her voice.

I believe all the Arch-Angels images are engraved in the temple, even Shan-Wei's. I am sure there is text-ev for that however, I don't think I am going to re-read all the previous books to find that [/quote]

I don't agree with your spin on this passage that Evil provided...
I think that it is telling us that he viewed other files not that he had seen the room and not that he had seen the exact file that Merlin showed him after his last supper...
If I am correct, this tells me that the Order of Schuler knows at least enough to review some of the files... It is likely some sort of ritual like recharging the power supply on the stone of Schuyler or maybe changing the wallpaper in their offices using the God eye.
I do not think that he normally saw two inch tall images but he did recognize who he was seeing ((yes from the statues)but also from "images like" the ones that Merlin showed him.

Hi Don,

You're probably right.

But after Rainbow Waters arrested Clyntahn's intendant, one wonders how much temple loyalist they remained when the presumed heretics kept winning, etc.

I suspect their assumptions regarding how true and honest the inquisition propaganda had been were evidently also considerably shaken.

Since they can't go home again, it seemed possible to me, however unlikely, the Lord Protector might offer them land to homestead, to neutralize them by changing their perspective of the republic, in a bidding war with Duchairn, by treating them as very honorable enemies with mutual respect.

For the former serfs or slaves, that would mean a great deal.

OTOH, since Duchairn needs an army and the AoG has been largely gutted, adopting these political but potent orphans makes a lot of sense.

Starting a new war by sending them to invade Desnar doesn't.

The CoGA can't afford another war, and as long as Desnar continues to submit its gold and tithes, Duchairn will be nominally or at least publicly satisfied, even if Desnar creates its own church opposed to his reforms since its days are obviously numbered.

South Harchong may feel it too needs an army, and may hire the best of the MHoGatA, or at least split them with Duchairn.

Either way, they're not going away and trying to deal with them will complicate any North Harchong plots against Duchairn and South Harchong for some time to come.

I can see Nahrmahn suggesting that the EoC buy or smuggle the immediate families of the serfs back in North Harchong out [like the underground railroad] then repatriate them as a token of good will, to further undermine the Harchong Empire's potential control over them, possibly quietly working with Duchairn or his reformist archbishops, with considerable help from Nynian's SoSK and the network of seijins.

I've previously suggested that the EoC buy up much of impoverished Sodar as cheaply as possible, to provide safe havens for escaped slaves from the other domains of Howard [eventually settling them on Greentree and Westbreak islands etc]; then if South Harchong does emancipate their slaves as part of any business deals with the Charisian empire, in return for assuring and increasing its independence from the north thanks to its unbeatable navy, quite large steps towards complete emancipation will have been taken.

Splintering the CoGA can only help the inner circle's long term goals, and being able to influence Duchairn via the lower echelons of the circle that Nynian and Adorai know can also help Duchairn to accept the technology he seemed opposed to in the earlier books.

Interesting times in deed.

For the EoC, railroading will be very big, especially a railroad from Cheshire to Cherayth seems likely within 4-5 years.

So a book just to explain all that's happens in the next 20 years seems quite likely.

L

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Lyonheart,

I think you are right. Green Tree Island will become a haven for escaped slaves as South Harchong grows more liberal and the MH conquers Desnair. I don't think Stonahr will want the MH anywhere on Haven. Can't say that Thirsk or Ahlvarez would like that any more than Stonahr. The most likely location is down south. So many birds may be hit with that large stone.

That argues Green Tree Island will continue to receive immigrants from South Harchong but not diplomatic recognition. That and the need for coaling stations suggests that the EoC will indeed extend its protection. What form that protection takes will be interesting to see.

Now, what other geopolitical themes will develop in the next two decades?

The floor is open....

If I were the Protector, the notion of settling a million plus Harchongese who are going to be TLs would not be a very attractive idea. Nor would the return of those Siddarmarkians who valued their loyalty to the Temple above their citizenship in the Republic. I think I would tell them to regard the Temple Lands their permanent home....

Don

-

I'm beginning to wish that RFC had chosen another name for Sodar. I keep confusing it with Sodor, and now people are mentioning 'railroading' I expect Thomas the Tank Engine to make an appearance. (Yes, I did have to watch the series with my grandson.)

Cheers, John

[quote="lyonheart"]Hi Don,

You're probably right.

But after Rainbow Waters arrested Clyntahn's intendant, one wonders how much temple loyalist they remained when the presumed heretics kept winning, etc.

I suspect their assumptions regarding how true and honest the inquisition propaganda had been were evidently also considerably shaken.

Since they can't go home again, it seemed possible to me, however unlikely, the Lord Protector might offer them land to homestead, to neutralize them by changing their perspective of the republic, in a bidding war with Duchairn, by treating them as very honorable enemies with mutual respect.

For the former serfs or slaves, that would mean a great deal.

OTOH, since Duchairn needs an army and the AoG has been largely gutted, adopting these political but potent orphans makes a lot of sense.

Starting a new war by sending them to invade Desnar doesn't.

The CoGA can't afford another war, and as long as Desnar continues to submit its gold and tithes, Duchairn will be nominally or at least publicly satisfied, even if Desnar creates its own church opposed to his reforms since its days are obviously numbered.

South Harchong may feel it too needs an army, and may hire the best of the MHoGatA, or at least split them with Duchairn.

Either way, they're not going away and trying to deal with them will complicate any North Harchong plots against Duchairn and South Harchong for some time to come.

I can see Nahrmahn suggesting that the EoC buy or smuggle the immediate families of the serfs back in North Harchong out [like the underground railroad] then repatriate them as a token of good will, to further undermine the Harchong Empire's potential control over them, possibly quietly working with Duchairn or his reformist archbishops, with considerable help from Nynian's SoSK and the network of seijins.

I've previously suggested that the EoC buy up much of impoverished Sodar as cheaply as possible, to provide safe havens for escaped slaves from the other domains of Howard [eventually settling them on Greentree and Westbreak islands etc]; then if South Harchong does emancipate their slaves as part of any business deals with the Charisian empire, in return for assuring and increasing its independence from the north thanks to its unbeatable navy, quite large steps towards complete emancipation will have been taken.

Splintering the CoGA can only help the inner circle's long term goals, and being able to influence Duchairn via the lower echelons of the circle that Nynian and Adorai know can also help Duchairn to accept the technology he seemed opposed to in the earlier books.

Interesting times in deed.

For the EoC, railroading will be very big, especially a railroad from Cheshire to Cherayth seems likely within 4-5 years.

So a book just to explain all that's happens in the next 20 years seems quite likely.

L