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SLN Logistics

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Re: SLN Logistics
Post by kaid   » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:52 pm

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Sigs wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:Sure, it would be POSSIBLE to modify existing SL SDs to carry LACs.

That would mean whatever modifications you had to do to carry them and certainly you MIGHT be able to convert various capital missile magazines and the handling gear/passageways to do the same for the LAC missile weapons.

Same thing for crew space for the LAC crews/admin-command staff and maintenance/riggers. It would be a serious question about where people were being housed/trained/fed etc vs. where they duty stations would be but that is mostly a question of time to get to where you need to be. At least in the situation where you were involved in a planned strike, your crews would be in the LACs awaiting launch. In any non-combat day cycle they would just have to allow enough time to get where they needed to be.

You could also take away the crew otherwise needed for the SD weapons that you would need to remove or not be able to use because of having to modify for the LACs (hanger space/ C&C, etc).

Couple of things though. You probably are going to want to upgrade the SD's defensive suite of weapons to get rid of the auto-cannon in favor of defensive energy weapons and a massive additioin to counter-missile batteries (and related handling and logistics) plus the sensors etc needed.

IF the SL were to take commissioned SDs out of deployment- which mostly would keep the crew with them and train on the changes- while you do the upgrades to weapons and add the LAC modifications, you would get them back faster with trained crews and more modern ships (or at least newer) than attempting to upgrade anything in the Reserve Fleets for which you would still have to the upgrades plus find all new crew.

The other thing is just exactly what LACs would the SL be using and where would they get them? They don't have anything like the current generation RMN or RHN LACs or the weapons/sensors/defences of said LACs. Putting current "standard" SL LACs on the converted SLs might be such a great idea as SL LACs are more like customs enforcement gunboats and primarily equiped to do things like theaten merchant ships, not full up warships. I suspect that the engagement ranges of SL LACs both defence and offense is signicantly less than any of the current GA LACs and they will have siginicant speed and sensor challanges as well.

That would put a SL SD LAC tender conversion more in the range of carrying a load of clay pigeons if they have to launch against a stike by GA warships or LAC raid.

As a raider or participant in a raid against a verge system with SL equivenent weapons and a few actual warships, sure, they would probably help. Certainly just the size of one SD showing up as part of a strike had a certain level of intimidation but you are not going to get the same level of effectiveness against almost anything that a GA LAC strike would carry.
Sure, hitting a Manticorian system such one in the Talbot Clusterusing a multi-starship force and one or more SL SD LAC tender conversions against "only" three or four squadrons of RMN LACs is probably going to suceed in "capturing" the system and doing significant damage to the infrastructure but the cost to the raiding force is going to also going to be significant. The SD would survive- probably wouldn't even get attacke by the RMN LACs- but the SL LACs would be butchered and the lighter starships of the SL will probably get a bit hammered and take damage. How much damage depends on a lot of things but anything that ends up not being able to hyper out is going to be a write-off for the SL.

All of this will, however, let the SLN at least say and show they are "doing something". Tough on the crews though.



Unless I am forgetting something, the SLN has not witnessed the true power of the GAs LACs. So they will not be thinking in terms of LACs until they have a demonstration of the power of those ships.

And yes, the SLN could convert some of their SDs into LAC carriers but the amount of effort would discourage them. They might try on one or two and even they would realize it would be easier to start from scratch. And considering they would have LACs even weaker than the RHNs LACs they will need a carrier that can bring as many LACs as possible with it... something a converted SD would not.



Minor spoiler but it seemed like mesa system control had at least some idea of how potent the mantie lacs really are when describing the forces that entered their system. I would tend to assume the SLN who are not totally head inserted into rear probably have a similar level of data.
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Re: SLN Logistics
Post by SYED   » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:43 pm

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Mesa system might be aware of the usefulness of modern Lac, but part of the alignment plans was to make Mesa seem as a minimal threat due to a minimal naval force. While having just a Lac fleet would be inline for appearances, having a competent fleet, is too much a risk. So better to have a couple hyper war ships, that would be ineffectual. If they had a great lac fleet, it would just encourage others to copy them.
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Re: SLN Logistics
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:00 pm

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Mesa (the system) Government and MSDF would probably not be talking to the SLN about anything they knew or suspect about the RMN.
There is the whole "home system of Manpower and genetic slavery" thing. IF any the MSDF did know any detail about RMN LACs and weapons, they are going to be getting it - at best- second hand.

It is the Alignment that has been out in the field gathering information and being involved in the goings on in Talbot and other places. They are surely not going to be passing any usefull deails to the SLN since it it now the GA that is going to prune back the SLN as part of the process of weakening the League. Giving the SLN the Cataphracts (but not, apparently, the actual design specs nor a tooled up factory to produce them and their component parts) really doesn't accomplish a lot more than change the range for people using SL tech missiles but not the Cataphracts. The GA is most likely going to conclude that as some of the SLN ships are carrying them (like the pods with Fillerta's fleet) the practical solution is to just stand off and engage with superior powered flight range and power. Don't close with the SLN- besides, you don't want to come into energy range with them in any case

Does the SLN truly know about the RMN LACs? They do if they took the time to read the report of whichever SLN officer took the SLN's version of Fillerta's Total Screwup back to Earth. Do they actualy know how the GA LACs are configured/what the weapons specs are/what defensive weapons are (and the LACs as missile screen tactical doctrine) work out to be? Not so much.

Converting SLN SDs or some of those now very valuable for other reasons merchant ships to carry "normal" SL tech LACs doesn't make that much sense. Neither does doing the conversions for some new version of SL LACs which are not even (probably) on the drawing boards yet (along with the weapons they would need) and for which they can't even have a projected date to do prototype testing let alone training a wing's worth of crews and deploy them to combat.
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Re: SLN Logistics
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:23 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Does the SLN truly know about the RMN LACs? They do if they took the time to read the report of whichever SLN officer took the SLN's version of Fillerta's Total Screwup back to Earth. Do they actualy know how the GA LACs are configured/what the weapons specs are/what defensive weapons are (and the LACs as missile screen tactical doctrine) work out to be? Not so much.


Manticore demonstrated the power of modern LACs -- specifically the Shrike graser -- to the survivors of Adm Crandall's taskforce and then sent the senior admiral back to Earth with tactical recordings and other eye-witnesses. With typical SLN thoroughness, everyone involved was denigrated and ignored.

If the SLN doesn't know anything about modern Haven Sector LACs it isn't because they haven't been warned and informed.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: SLN Logistics
Post by SYED   » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:15 pm

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If the league was aware of the usefulness of the LACs, they would be quickly refitting their ships to carry them, since they are ill equipped to fight their new foes. Their own versions might not be up to manties standards, they do have a lot, so easy to distribute to important places.
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Re: SLN Logistics
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:37 am

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Personally I think that the SLN raiding strategy is screwed from Day One based on the "space is big" and wormhole control makes it small for the "winning team". Also known as Rampajet's folly is about to be followed by Kingsford's folly...

Here's my logic, based on 1) SLN arrogance and 3) simple astrography, [given that we're told that Manticore's access to the League via pre-Lacoon wormholes already surrounded 75% of the league periphery plus the fact that 10th Fleet already controls one of the flanks. That doesn't even count Lacoon II which sort of takes out the middles, I think]:

We're told that the SLN has between 12-20 fleet yards, right? So if I'm Manticore --> even without the GA my first priority is to position enough scouts nearby that any arming up of battlecruiser squadrons triggers a planned sequence of "get an idea of their heading", scouts follow and jump out at the closest wormhole approach, jumps ahead to warn the appropriate SDF forces...

So said SLN raiding squadron(s) arrive to face... a bunch of LACS or a few Rolands, maybe a couple Sag-C's and maybe a Taylor class support vehicle... and either surrenders or goes Buh bye in the first few salvos.

AKA the SLN logistics don't even come into play because said ships never come back to resupply. Thoughts?
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Re: SLN Logistics
Post by SYED   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:29 pm

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It is said the league only controls around 6 terminii, I wonder what would happen if the manties gain control over them due to lacoon? It might give them full access to the periphery, or a huge tactical advantage in movement in the league itself.
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Re: SLN Logistics
Post by Sigs   » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:28 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:We're told that the SLN has between 12-20 fleet yards, right? So if I'm Manticore --> even without the GA my first priority is to position enough scouts nearby that any arming up of battlecruiser squadrons triggers a planned sequence of "get an idea of their heading", scouts follow and jump out at the closest wormhole approach, jumps ahead to warn the appropriate SDF forces...

1)The GA does not know about the raiding strategy and I doubt they would be worried about it if they did know.

2)They don't need to consolidate their raiding fleets in any of their shipyards, there could be dozens of if not hundreds of Naval bases that they could choose from or they could from. So for Manticore or the GA to station scouts to gather intelligence about a force that can't do much damage to begin with would be a non-starter.




SharkHunter wrote:AKA the SLN logistics don't even come into play because said ships never come back to resupply. Thoughts?
The logistics come into play because the SLN is sending it's ships with the expectation that they will have some success, so they have to send logistical support with those ships or they will have at most one or 2 successful missions and then they will HAVE to pull back to resupply. So if they sent 100,500 or 1,000 BC's and below to raid the GA they have to send appropriate support ships to prevent them from going all the way to the GA for one raid and coming back.

In the Second Battle of Manticore the SLN Admiral realized exactly what he was, an amateur. The SLN in general still considers itself a competent military force. What they don't seem to realize is that where they are now, the RMN and RHN were 20 or 30 years before.


So I suspect their raiding strategy will fail because they don't realize that after 20 years of war all the GA member systems are fortified so that even the weakest system can offer up some resistance to a small raiding force using GA technology what it means is that many of the weaker systems can be overwhelmed but only with overwhelming SLN force and it will still take heavy casualties. It would be hard to spin it as a victory if you lost 10 or 15 BC's, CL's and DD's while destroying a bunch of LAC's and a bit of industry.
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Re: SLN Logistics
Post by Sigs   » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:32 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:Does the SLN truly know about the RMN LACs? They do if they took the time to read the report of whichever SLN officer took the SLN's version of Fillerta's Total Screwup back to Earth. Do they actualy know how the GA LACs are configured/what the weapons specs are/what defensive weapons are (and the LACs as missile screen tactical doctrine) work out to be? Not so much.


Manticore demonstrated the power of modern LACs -- specifically the Shrike graser -- to the survivors of Adm Crandall's taskforce and then sent the senior admiral back to Earth with tactical recordings and other eye-witnesses. With typical SLN thoroughness, everyone involved was denigrated and ignored.

If the SLN doesn't know anything about modern Haven Sector LACs it isn't because they haven't been warned and informed.



The SLN took the wrong message from that battle. The LAC's was a demonstration was a means of saying we can blow your ships before you can arm your weapons or raise your wedge, but the SLN probably didn't get the message that they can do a lot of damage to an intact ready ship.
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Re: SLN Logistics
Post by Sigs   » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:45 pm

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SYED wrote:If the league was aware of the usefulness of the LACs, they would be quickly refitting their ships to carry them, since they are ill equipped to fight their new foes. Their own versions might not be up to manties standards, they do have a lot, so easy to distribute to important places.



Problem is that being informed of the usefulness of something and possessing that tool/weapon are two different things. Right now as it stands they may have a lot of LAC's floating around, and they may have the ability to build many more but for their LAC's to stand up to the GA's LAC's it would have to be ridiculously lopsided odds... like 20 to 1. So even if the SLN could magically convert their entire active SD fleet into carriers that can accommodate 150 LAC's a piece they MAY...MAY be able to neutralize the GA's LAC's by simply outnumbering the GA so greatly but they will lose many if not most of those LAC's and those remaining LAC's would be useless for anything other than Kamikaze strikes against Alliance BC's and above.
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