WAR ROOM

I imagine the Admiralty consulted with White Haven and the RMN's worst case scenario led to a prong of attack aimed indirectly at the heart of Haven, was the plan, after wrapping up a few "minor" details.

President Pritchart asked Theisman to present her with a graduating plan of escalations. Which led to the worst case scenario of a prong of attack directly at the heart of Manticore.

After having learned from their protracted wars with each other, there has to be discussion in the War Room on the worst case scenario regarding the League. Especially in the possible case they are suddenly confronted with facing the MAlign on one front, the RMN will again need to quickly put a nail in one foe and eliminate one axis of threat once and for all, one way or the other as they had sought to do with Haven. Whose ramifications' worst case scenario will lead right down the rabbit hole to a direct prong of attack right at the heart of Sol.

If push comes to shove and shove pushes back, what sort of battle plan would you recommend to the Admiralty this time, to achieve what eluded them at the Second Battle of Manticore? How best to hyper in system and demand a surrender, preferably without firing a shot or at least having to massacre "too many." Did we learn from our mistakes at the Second Battle of Manticore? Can we do it this time, in absence of the MAlign's interference? How should we showcase our fire power gentlemen to avoid another unnatural disaster and still achieve our strategic must of controlling the orbitals? We want a winning move gentlemen, where the foe will undoubtedly resign.

"This is a chance for a do over people," says the collection of the GA's top brasses. We want a plan that will quickly show even incompetent, blind, arrogant Sollies that to fight is to die.

"Make no mistake gentlemen. We don't wish to kill. However, should the Sollies prove just as stubborn as ever, if we have to kill then we will — by God, destroy."

cthia wrote:I imagine the Admiralty consulted with White Haven and the RMN's worst case scenario led to a prong of attack aimed indirectly at the heart of Haven, was the plan, after wrapping up a few "minor" details.

President Pritchart asked Theisman to present her with a graduating plan of escalations. Which led to the worst case scenario of a prong of attack directly at the heart of Manticore.

After having learned from their protracted wars with each other, there has to be discussion in the War Room on the worst case scenario regarding the League. Especially in the possible case they are suddenly confronted with facing the MAlign on one front, the RMN will again need to quickly put a nail in one foe and eliminate one axis of threat once and for all, one way or the other as they had sought to do with Haven. Whose ramifications' worst case scenario will lead right down the rabbit hole to a direct prong of attack right at the heart of Sol.

If push comes to shove and shove pushes back, what sort of battle plan would you recommend to the Admiralty this time, to achieve what eluded them at the Second Battle of Manticore? How best to hyper in system and demand a surrender, preferably without firing a shot or at least having to massacre "too many." Did we learn from our mistakes at the Second Battle of Manticore? Can we do it this time, in absence of the MAlign's interference? How should we showcase our fire power gentlemen to avoid another unnatural disaster and still achieve our strategic must of controlling the orbitals? We want a winning move gentlemen, where the foe will undoubtedly resign.

"This is a chance for a do over people," says the collection of the GA's top brasses. We want a plan that will quickly show even incompetent, blind, arrogant Sollies that to fight is to die.

"Make no mistake gentlemen. We don't wish to kill. However, should the Sollies prove just as stubborn as ever, if we have to kill then we will — by God, destroy."

The simplest strategy is overwhelming force(s) concentrated in as many places as you can to hit as many targets as you can.

1)Hit the major naval bases first, move in with overwhelming force and if necessary do demonstration strikes on as few of the ships as possible. Make sure that everything is broadcasted to the government of the system in question if it has a civilian presence so as not to have any confusion. Once the military presence is removed, occupy those major bases in order to deny them to the enemy.


2)Scout out other system, see what their defences are and send double or triple the number of units to make it obvious that even if the tech advantage is not there they still die. If demonstrations are needed do so but use the minimum force necessary. Once enemy forces are dealt with weather through surrender or if all else fails destruction.

Once that is done inform the system government that they have 3 choices:

I. Declare independence and Join the Alliance
II. Remain in the League but declare neutrality for the duration of hostilities
III. Declare independence and remain neutral


3)Once the SLN is defeated in a system leave a small picket and move on to the next system, never pressure a system to make a choice simply leave them to make the choice they want.

4)Hitting naval bases first allows you the opportunity to capture high ranking officers you might persuade to help you convince the system pickets to surrender.


The ultimate goal is to move into a system, defeat it's picket through the least destructive manner possible and allow the system government to determine where they are going to lead their system. No wholesale occupation, no destruction of civilian property, no forcing decisions upon them... they will know that the Alliance is not the boogeyman they might have been led to believe it was and ultimately nothing major should change in the day to day lives of most of the civilians.


Hitting the major SLN bases first allows the Alliance to eliminate as much of the SLN's remaining wall as possible as well as well as the highest concentration of FF units as possible. Limit their ability to retaliate against any system that requests independence.

Once news starts spreading that the SLN units are completely defenceless operations should become easier rather than harder. Not even high ranking SLN officers can be that criminally stupid and suicidal when confronted with technologically superior enemy that also achieves local numerical superiority and who has already knocked out your navy's ability to retaliate.

So a picket. Say 3 ships? Which need at least 6 more ships to maintain on station. So let's call it 10 ships per SL member system. How many SL member systems are there?

kzt wrote:So a picket. Say 3 ships? Which need at least 6 more ships to maintain on station. So let's call it 10 ships per SL member system. How many SL member systems are there?

If the Bulk of the SLN's Ships above BC are destroyed, and those that are not are spread over a few hundred systems how long would it take for the SLN to disintegrate and the League to collapse as a whole? Once the biggest concentrations of Capital ships(BC and above) are destroyed and the remaining system pickets know they are truly alone how long before the first one switches sides to a newly independent system? I doubt that the GA would need to fight their way through the whole League. If it were a nation that encouraged loyalty from it's citizens to the nation first and home system second yeah, maybe but it is the League which does not have the full loyalty of it's citizens and even it's naval crew's.

And by picket I include LAC's, DD's, CL's and Dispatch boats. If a system has an SDF of any kind weather it is SD's or just LAC's the picket could consist of a Dispatch boat to ask for help if the need arises. If there are SLN units in the system that have declared loyalty to the system government then there should be policies in place to utilize those relationships as well.

There will likely never be enough hulls to provide a decent picket to 2,000 systems unless the GA wants to start conscripting its population and building exclusively light combatants and even then they would still need to capture SLN light combatants and man them just to get the numbers to picket every system.

There are going to be millions of SLN personnel who will surrender their vessels to the GA, they can be utilized by the local system government as well once the SLN starts to collapse.

My niece mentioned to me, rather off-handedly — she was skirting a touchy issue as it were — that she was thinking about the intimate detail in the RMN's War Room as it stacks up against our current War Room. She brought up the very early days of the Command Center when wooden pieces were moved around a large table with an extended pointer to represent the theater of conflict. Mostly, the forces were all represented in some fashion or another.

We know that in the Honorverse, there's this huge holo tank representing updated RMN and enemy forces, as reflects the latest reported movements.

She asked me, "Uncle, how do you suppose the RMNs forces — where much leeway is given to the Commanders on the spot — are accurately represented in the War room so that Caparelli, or whoever is in the hot seat is able to get an accurate enough picture to make the big strategic call, to better tame the pressure? Especially with Commanders shortstopping fleet trains and ships? I suppose that when you think about it in this light, it quickly becomes apparent why it would be so important to detach some unit to send back to the Admiralty with the latest emergency ship movements and/or confrontations. Small pickets may find it rather difficult to downright impossible to detach even a tin can. Henke didn't want Honor to detach her and send her home either. Though she had little choice."

"It seems that Haven would have enjoyed a slight advantage in the regard," she continues. "Inasmuch as where they assigned a force that force had limited mobility. So their Command Center Holo should have displayed more of an accurate representation of allocated forces — less any that have been turned to orbital debris, that is. Of course, having more freedom of movement — longer rope, as it were — could also serve to hang you."

"It sure must be an impressive sight, an auto updated Holotank representation of allocated forces. At least — if you are going to work in a pressure cooker Uncle — it would do to have a digital Crock Pot!"

I mentioned that even in today's modern world, the US doesn't know exactly where much of its forces are either, especially the nuclear subs.

At any rate, she brings up an interesting point. How does the RMN represent the theater of conflict when their Commanders are given so much rope?

"I suppose the junctions, with their efficient communication loop, factors in greatly in that regard as well, Uncle."

****** *

What my niece mainly covets, she says, is a chess match with the RMNs War Room computer on a holotank.

Now that's a brow raising thought!

Then my face morphed into an evil grin.

"What's so funny Uncle?"

"I was simply thinking, you'd finally get your butt kicked. But good."

"May be. But not as bad as you'd get yours. But better!"

Why I oughta...

Norad Command Center...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NORA ... r.jpg#file

cthia wrote:My niece mentioned to me, rather off-handedly — she was skirting a touchy issue as it were — that she was thinking about the intimate detail in the RMN's War Room as it stacks up against our current War Room. She brought up the very early days of the Command Center when wooden pieces were moved around a large table with an extended pointer to represent the theater of conflict. Mostly, the forces were all represented in some fashion or another.

We know that in the Honorverse, there's this huge holo tank representing updated RMN and enemy forces, as reflects the latest reported movements.

She asked me, "Uncle, how do you suppose the RMNs forces — where much leeway is given to the Commanders on the spot — are accurately represented in the War room so that Caparelli, or whoever is in the hot seat is able to get an accurate enough picture to make the big strategic call, to better tame the pressure? Especially with Commanders shortstopping fleet trains and ships?

The books mention that the interstellar communication lag means the war room it lacks the immediacy of NORAD. And yes it's often going to be wrong in some particulars.
That's probably one reason Manticore tended to launch major offenses from the home system, or later from Trevor's Star, less that a day's round trip commmunication loop from the War Room.

There are reasons that, as far as I know, nobody tried centeral tracking and dispatching of warships until telegraph allowed the Royal Navy faster than steam communication with its worldwide network of naval stations.

But Manticore does need some level of strategic tracking. I suspect the holo is coded in some way to intuitively display how old the most recent update on a ship, fleet, of system was received - to help keep Caperelli and his staff aware of how stale a given but of information might be. I suspect they also deal with the issue by providing less detailed orders to fleet commanders. Rather than detailing which units to use, and exactly how to perform the mission, I suspect you send things that express the operational result the orders say to achieve, and the assumptions about disposition and forcekevels that caused you to issue those orders. (And the degree to which other fleets or units are planning to exploit the results your ordered to attempt)
That background would let the on scene commander realize when the assumptions of the War Room are too outdated for the orders to work; and they can improvise appropriate measures to do what they can to towards the desired ends.

But many of the orders are probably things like defend this system - but at a desired level of risk. An Ally you maybe are willing to lose your detachment defending them. A supply node might be more willingly sacrificed if the rate of exchange isn't favorable enough. Or as possible use your cruisers to raid enemy synstem or shipping in a rough volume of space. Or picket systems containing enemy fleets. You don't tend to order significant offensive action from peripheral systems. So the type of orders somewhat mitigate the issue of not having timely information on even your own systems and ships.
But for all that we know there were times when RMN forces got screwed because of the inescapable lag in moving information around their universe.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:My niece mentioned to me, rather off-handedly — she was skirting a touchy issue as it were — that she was thinking about the intimate detail in the RMN's War Room as it stacks up against our current War Room. She brought up the very early days of the Command Center when wooden pieces were moved around a large table with an extended pointer to represent the theater of conflict. Mostly, the forces were all represented in some fashion or another.

We know that in the Honorverse, there's this huge holo tank representing updated RMN and enemy forces, as reflects the latest reported movements.

She asked me, "Uncle, how do you suppose the RMNs forces — where much leeway is given to the Commanders on the spot — are accurately represented in the War room so that Caparelli, or whoever is in the hot seat is able to get an accurate enough picture to make the big strategic call, to better tame the pressure? Especially with Commanders shortstopping fleet trains and ships?

The books mention that the interstellar communication lag means the war room it lacks the immediacy of NORAD. And yes it's often going to be wrong in some particulars.
That's probably one reason Manticore tended to launch major offenses from the home system, or later from Trevor's Star, less that a day's round trip commmunication loop from the War Room.

There are reasons that, as far as I know, nobody tried centeral tracking and dispatching of warships until telegraph allowed the Royal Navy faster than steam communication with its worldwide network of naval stations.

But Manticore does need some level of strategic tracking. I suspect the holo is coded in some way to intuitively display how old the most recent update on a ship, fleet, of system was received - to help keep Caperelli and his staff aware of how stale a given but of information might be. I suspect they also deal with the issue by providing less detailed orders to fleet commanders. Rather than detailing which units to use, and exactly how to perform the mission, I suspect you send things that express the operational result the orders say to achieve, and the assumptions about disposition and forcekevels that caused you to issue those orders. (And the degree to which other fleets or units are planning to exploit the results your ordered to attempt)
That background would let the on scene commander realize when the assumptions of the War Room are too outdated for the orders to work; and they can improvise appropriate measures to do what they can to towards the desired ends.

But many of the orders are probably things like defend this system - but at a desired level of risk. An Ally you maybe are willing to lose your detachment defending them. A supply node might be more willingly sacrificed if the rate of exchange isn't favorable enough. Or as possible use your cruisers to raid enemy synstem or shipping in a rough volume of space. Or picket systems containing enemy fleets. You don't tend to order significant offensive action from peripheral systems. So the type of orders somewhat mitigate the issue of not having timely information on even your own systems and ships.
But for all that we know there were times when RMN forces got screwed because of the inescapable lag in moving information around their universe.

Do pardon my bold to draw attention.

Nice post Jonathan. Thank you much for your insight. During the war with the Havenites, I vaguely remember a statement by either an RMN commander or the Admiralty stating something regarding a hole or inefficiency in their communication loop, regarding the failed analysis of a major Havenite movement of forces—being that the RHN's picket forces had been severely drawn down which should have alerted the RMN of a major Havenite offensive. Well, subtly drawn down on any one individual picket, but magnified across the board the cumulative effect was quite dramatic. I can't quite recall the particulars. The obvious mistake in intel was caught after the fact.

My point is that information being accurately represented cuts both ways, inasmuch as affecting an effective offensive and defensive posture or response. A navy's Command Center would certainly want to know of any major fleet movements of enemy ships — or even an overall minor movement in local picket forces indicating a possible enemy operation. I think I even recall an intimation of Caparelli's — being aware of suggestive Havenite movement, was yet unable to make a call because of a lack of detailed or fresh information, as it were. Which validates your notion of stale information being somewhat useless.

During the discussion with my niece, I mentioned an overall surprise that the RMN didn't seem to use the inside communication loop as advantageously as it seemed that they could have. E.g., there was never any incoming communique where, let's say, Harrington was able to predict a possible enemy offensive maneuver and was able to counteract the offensive based on this information. I always wondered why a dispatch boat wasn't a part of every fleet, task force or picket force. Dispatch boats are a dime a dozen I thought, and cheap to manufacture. They also had diplomatic immunity and every navy except for the RMN seemed to use them rather ruthlessly.

At any rate, I always imagined that dispatch boats could be an integral part of ferrying updated information, therefore an integral part of the War Room — for the RMN, that is, who enjoy an inside straight on the communication loop via control of the junctions.

Tierney opined that both navies tended to launch offensives which were completely contained, inasmuch as they didn't require mutual support from a local node. Which, of course, you covered the same sort of conjecture.

In matters of a perceived Case Zulu — especially the force the size of either First or Second Manticore — it may very well turn out to be imperative for the Admiralty to have some idea of where to order a recall of forces. After all, if the Case Zulu never reaches you...

cthia wrote:Nice post Jonathan. Thank you much for your insight. During the war with the Havenites, I vaguely remember a statement by either an RMN commander or the Admiralty stating something regarding a hole or inefficiency in their communication loop, regarding the failed analysis of a major Havenite movement of forces—being that the RHN's picket forces had been severely drawn down which should have alerted the RMN of a major Havenite offensive. Well, subtly drawn down on any one individual picket, but magnified across the board the cumulative effect was quite dramatic. I can't quite recall the particulars. The obvious mistake in intel was caught after the fact.

My point is that information being accurately represented cuts both ways, inasmuch as affecting an effective offensive and defensive posture or response. A navy's Command Center would certainly want to know of any major fleet movements of enemy ships — or even an overall minor movement in local picket forces indicating a possible enemy operation. I think I even recall an intimation of Caparelli's — being aware of suggestive Havenite movement, was yet unable to make a call because of a lack of detailed or fresh information, as it were. Which validates your notion of stale information being somewhat useless.

During the discussion with my niece, I mentioned an overall surprise that the RMN didn't seem to use the inside communication loop as advantageously as it seemed that they could have. E.g., there was never any incoming communique where, let's say, Harrington was able to predict a possible enemy offensive maneuver and was able to counteract the offensive based on this information. I always wondered why a dispatch boat wasn't a part of every fleet, task force or picket force. Dispatch boats are a dime a dozen I thought, and cheap to manufacture. They also had diplomatic immunity and every navy except for the RMN seemed to use them rather ruthlessly.

At any rate, I always imagined that dispatch boats could be an integral part of ferrying updated information, therefore an integral part of the War Room — for the RMN, that is, who enjoy an inside straight on the communication loop via control of the junctions.

Tierney opined that both navies tended to launch offensives which were completely contained, inasmuch as they didn't require mutual support from a local node. Which, of course, you covered the same sort of conjecture.

In matters of a perceived Case Zulu — especially the force the size of either First or Second Manticore — it may very well turn out to be imperative for the Admiralty to have some idea of where to order a recall of forces. After all, if the Case Zulu never reaches you...

I'm sure the RMN uses dispatch boats far more often off-screen that we see in the books. But nobody ever has as many as they want.

And they're cheap, but probably not dime a dozen. I'd guess, pre-war, they were maybe 6 to a destroyer in terms of acquisition cost. They have the same fusion reactor, rad shielding, alpha & beta nodes, and hyper generator as the destroyer - but less size, much poorer sensors, and not of the offensive or defensive weapons, control links, tactical computers, etc, etc. But even the heavy drive equipment isn't really 'cheap'.
Their total lifecycle costs should be even lower than that though. They probably need drive repair and replacement more frequently, since they get flogged all over space. But more than offsetting that is their vastly smaller crews to pay, provide medical and retirement for, etc.

Still there are plenty of times an admiral would rather have 4 more destroyers than 24 more dispatch boats. And the destroyers can be assigned the same job as the dispatch boat, and aren't significantly slower at relaying a message.


But when the nearest system is days away even by dispatch boat you've still got non-trivial information lag. It's really only the direct termini of the Junction where you get reasonably current information from - once people are beyond that...

Jonathan_S wrote:But when the nearest system is days away even by dispatch boat you've still got non-trivial information lag. It's really only the direct termini of the Junction where you get reasonably current information from - once people are beyond that...

For example, controlling Trevor's Star actually offers no improvements to the information lag from the Manticoran Alliance's prewar frontier. Places like Yeltsin, Hancock, Alizon, Zanzibar and Grendelsbane are closer to Manticore than Trevor's Star.

Part of the problem for Manticore is, none of the Junction advantages are secret. Haven was always well aware and attempted to exploit or circumvent them frequently, starting with the San Martin invasion and following with the Basilisk incident. Notable mentions include actually using the Junction itself to send Tourville the Sidemore attack order. Even the Sollies tried using it to coordinate Tsang's reinforcements.

Oh, and I'd forgotten to mention the obvious example of the RMN getting caught out by information lag - when Honor got captured at Adler. The ships carrying the warning that the system had been taken arrived after she'd departed for it, and so Prince Adrian walked right into a trap.

And that was just local, in-theater, lag. The delay for the War Room to find out the system picket had been punched out would have been multiple days later that even that.


Which reminds me that I'm sure that ships being deployed for a mission in or around an existing operational area try to check in with that zone's local HQ on their way. That let's them drop off any fresh dispatches from their previous location (whether it's Manticore or a forward fleet base), inform the area commander of their orders, and pick up more recent updates on the local area. (Make sure they're not planning to raid a system that actually got liberated already; or know any relivant patrol patterns or whatever).