SPOILER- Thank you so very much RFC for AtSoT!-SPOILER

Bluesqueak wrote:My guess is that he wanted to save it for Book 9 but realised too many readers would see the obvious military uses of balloons if they were mentioned in earlier books. But I'm really not bothered if it wasn't introduced in earlier books because he hadn't thought it up when he wrote them.

The best possible solution would be to mention them early in the same 9th book) Just mention - in some early chapters - that the hot air baloons were known on Safehold even before war) This would make the whole situation looks much more natural.

Dilandu wrote:The best possible solution would be to mention them early in the same 9th book) Just mention - in some early chapters - that the hot air baloons were known on Safehold even before war) This would make the whole situation looks much more natural.

Yeah. The logical point to mention hot air balloons was in the early passages of AtSoT when the Inner Circle was discussing them and Green Valley was ruminating on them. You know, in the snippets that were dropped for us prior to the whole book being released.

It's pretty well established procedure by this point to explain how new innovations don't violate the Proscriptions by pointing to all the pre-existing precursor technologies that make the innovation possible at all.

The early balloon passages? They didn't do that. They just dropped "Charis has balloons now!" and didn't explain why they didn't violate the Proscriptions until they were unveiled for the other side to see.

Edit: On the flip side, I can see why Weber didn't want to waste word count on explaining something the Church side was going to explain anyway.

But still, this is the kind of innovation that he had to have planned from the very beginning. So he SHOULD have included mention of hot air balloons even in passing in one of the earlier books. Possibly even in the very FIRST book.

From an earlier part of this thread

ecortez wrote:

dobriennm wrote:So, while it was so satisfying to Merlin and Nimue to break Clyntahn by convincing him of the truth, did they miss an opportunity to discover more about what's under the Temple and what is known to the Inquisition? Particularly whether the Inquisition has the means to summon the Archangels or the Rakurii?

Perhaps they should have tried to break him sooner and get more information out of him rather than simply having their revenge on him. Though I understand them not wanting to have him babbling to everyone about the demons showing him visions.

Any counterarguments?

I agree that they should've interrogated Zhaspahr Clyntahn. Clearly he knows nothing about any Archangels or other defense systems under the Temple, or he would've gone to wake them up instead of fleeing with Rayno. But he probably has a fair amount of information whose significance he doesn't fully grasp. Torture alone can be ineffective for well-known reasons. But torture plus foolproof lie detector? That'll get you the truth every time.

Agree, but I think my biggest problem is (based on the textev from Clyntahn's cell) Merlin and Nimue don't actually know that the Inquisition has access to secret computer files (or any clue what's in them). We have Clyntahn's thoughts about the secret files and know they have images and voices of some of the Archangels that Clyntahn recognizes, but not much else.

Note that it's the Authors prerogative to keep the characters in his world ignorant of certain information.

As a side speculation, has anyone considered that some of Clyntahn's religious fervor/fanaticism and "fight to the end and the Archangels will come and save Mother Church" might be based on directions from one of the Archangel's recordings in those secret files (much like the Wylsynn's directions from Archangel Schueler to keep Mother Church pure). That could be where the explanation from Clytahn to Rayno that "Man has no better nature to appeal to, that was proven by his fall to Shan-Wei's lies, only the fear of the Punishment keeps him in line. That's why the Inquistion has to be as harsh." (or words to that effect) It could be there is a message giving instructions to the Inquisition to that effect and to deal harshly with any drift away from orthodoxy or any organization/polity advocating or encouraging change.

Given the sudden decapitation of the Inquisition, both towards the end of the book and, undoubtedly, in the arrests and trials which followed the regime change, the fact we only heard about trials of vicars in no way means they were the only people punished, one has to wonder if there is anyone left in the Inquisition who knows about the high-tech secret files and how to access them.

For the same reasons, if Merlin and Nimue have managed to be reasonably discreet about exactly where and how they caught Clyntahn, the EoC may have just got themselves a back door into the Temple basement that very few, if any, others know about. Of course, we haven't been told how M & N got to know about it. 10 or 15 years ought to be enough to train up Paityr on computers and hacking or to find and induct to the Inner Circle someone who had the aptitude for such training.

evilauthor wrote:
But still, this is the kind of innovation that he had to have planned from the very beginning. So he SHOULD have included mention of hot air balloons even in passing in one of the earlier books. Possibly even in the very FIRST book.

Actually, Haraald mentions in the first book that it would be wonderful to see someone fly. In Book 3, Cayleb is described as the first Safeholdian to fly in well over eight centuries. So it seems that either RFC planned them as a new invention - and then realised that wouldn't fly (I'll get me coat) or they're a late idea that needed a bit of retrospective continuity adding.

The alternative is that they weren't mentioned because Merlin didn't know Safehold had balloons.

dobriennm wrote:From an earlier part of this thread

ecortez wrote: quote="dobriennm" So, while it was so satisfying to Merlin and Nimue to break Clyntahn by convincing him of the truth, did they miss an opportunity to discover more about what's under the Temple and what is known to the Inquisition? Particularly whether the Inquisition has the means to summon the Archangels or the Rakurii?

Perhaps they should have tried to break him sooner and get more information out of him rather than simply having their revenge on him. Though I understand them not wanting to have him babbling to everyone about the demons showing him visions.

Any counterarguments? /quote
I agree that they should've interrogated Zhaspahr Clyntahn. Clearly he knows nothing about any Archangels or other defense systems under the Temple, or he would've gone to wake them up instead of fleeing with Rayno. But he probably has a fair amount of information whose significance he doesn't fully grasp. Torture alone can be ineffective for well-known reasons. But torture plus foolproof lie detector? That'll get you the truth every time.

Agree, but I think my biggest problem is (based on the textev from Clyntahn's cell) Merlin and Nimue don't actually know that the Inquisition has access to secret computer files (or any clue what's in them). We have Clyntahn's thoughts about the secret files and know they have images and voices of some of the Archangels that Clyntahn recognizes, but not much else.

Note that it's the Authors prerogative to keep the characters in his world ignorant of certain information.

As a side speculation, has anyone considered that some of Clyntahn's religious fervor/fanaticism and "fight to the end and the Archangels will come and save Mother Church" might be based on directions from one of the Archangel's recordings in those secret files (much like the Wylsynn's directions from Archangel Schueler to keep Mother Church pure). That could be where the explanation from Clytahn to Rayno that "Man has no better nature to appeal to, that was proven by his fall to Shan-Wei's lies, only the fear of the Punishment keeps him in line. That's why the Inquistion has to be as harsh." (or words to that effect) It could be there is a message giving instructions to the Inquisition to that effect and to deal harshly with any drift away from orthodoxy or any organization/polity advocating or encouraging change.

We don't know that they were secret computer files - they could have been paper files, copied and recopied endlessly by inquisitor scribes for 8 centuries.

Keith_w wrote:
We don't know that they were secret computer files - they could have been paper files, copied and recopied endlessly by inquisitor scribes for 8 centuries.

We ABSOLUTELY know they are computer files since Clyntahn thinks

"He'd seen images like it in the Temple, in the Inquisitions secret records..."

and "the Angel Langhorne said, and it was the Archangels's voice. He knew it was, because unlike Shan-Wei's, he'd heard it before."

Bluesqueak wrote:

evilauthor wrote:
But still, this is the kind of innovation that he had to have planned from the very beginning. So he SHOULD have included mention of hot air balloons even in passing in one of the earlier books. Possibly even in the very FIRST book.

Actually, Haraald mentions in the first book that it would be wonderful to see someone fly. In Book 3, Cayleb is described as the first Safeholdian to fly in well over eight centuries. So it seems that either RFC planned them as a new invention - and then realised that wouldn't fly (I'll get me coat) or they're a late idea that needed a bit of retrospective continuity adding.

The alternative is that they weren't mentioned because Merlin didn't know Safehold had balloons.

From the way the characters talk, while hot air balloons are known, hot air balloons big enough to lift a human being hasn't been done before.

You'll note that the Church side kept thinking that Charis' balloons should be impossible because "there's no smoke" to indicate a heat source. Which means they're thinking wood or coal fires are the only sources of hot air for balloons since they don't know about Charis' use of natural gas.

So how big an open wood or coal fire do you think would be necessary to lift a balloon big enough to carry a man into the air? I'm thinking big enough that a balloon couldn't possibly carry one and still have room or weight left for the man.

And if I'm wrong and such things have been done in real life (which it may very well have), SAFEHOLD might never have done such a thing before given how the Inquisition discourages innovation for most of its history.

This was a wonderful read! RFC avoided turning the combat scenes into milporn but fairly described them. Most of the set up for the second story arc leaves a pretty wide open menu of possibilities for conflict in these upcoming years. I suspect the setting for the next arc will be like the 20th century but no electricity and a much higher dependence on steam, sparsely used IC engines as well as hydrolic and pneumatic systems.

In short a Weberesque steam punk novel with dirigibles, steam tanks, mega-Dreadnoughts and champions fighting slavery. Desnair and North Harchong as secular opponents to fuel an off-on hot and cold war seems deliciously unavoidable. Perhaps the Temple Lands and Harchong use Desnair as the battle ground for a proxy war with Charis. The Return might be ushered in with the escalation of the proxy war into a direct war in North Harchong with Dohlar and South Harchong pulled in multiple directions.

Addressing the post above. The issue is not hot air balloons large enough to lift people, but the endurance displayed by the ICA's balloons. How do they take up enough fuel to keep the air sufficiently hot? That and the lack of smoke perplexed the MH observers.

PeterZ wrote:This was a wonderful read!

Addressing the post above. The issue is not hot air balloons large enough to lift people, but the endurance displayed by the ICA's balloons. How do they take up enough fuel to keep the air sufficiently hot? That and the lack of smoke perplexed the MH observers.

A possible "work-around" would be to have an efficient "Kraken-oil" burner (smokeless) in the balloon and replenish the oil supply by hose from the ground. Probably no more complex than the described remote hydrogen supplies.