SLN Logistics

The SLN probably can't do much beyond commerce raiding as it would start to require maintaining combat ships in hostile areas outside the SL.

Think about a squadron of SL SD's showing up at some GA allied system, forcing surrender of a place similar to Zanzibar and then do what? Leave the whole squadron there to "hold" the system and perhaps capture any merchant ship that came by? What happens if they had some merchant ship leaving the system and not able to intercept it before it hypered out? So the GA sends a combat force geared to take on a squadron (plus screen) of SL SDs and just what is the SL supposed to do? Sit tight around the primary inhabited planet and hold it hostage? Actually, if they stay relativly deep in the system and the GA shows up that might be the only way they survive long enough to negotiate some sort of surrender.
Leaving ONE SD to hold the system is going to cost them the SD- and probably the crew if the commander doesn't surrender once confronted by a GA responce force.

The political fallout from the commerce raiding - forget going out and "liberating" some non-alligned system that trades with the GA- is going to be intersting. SLN shows up, blows up some merchants that are Manticorian flagged and then "punishes" the system by destroying infrastructure that is being used to "support Manticore"- and then the SL raiders strip materials and resources from said system to maintain their supplies of basic materials (since they are unlikely to be able to pick up usuable military equipment like missiles) and then leave, having essentially beggered the system because it is trading with Manticore.

We saw some discussion about the difficlulty with the SL telling it's member systems with SDFs that they have to support SLN activity with their own ships as the SL in NOT at war. This is particularly interesting as the SLN has a fairly clear picture that they can not actually defend most of the systems against a nominal (and yet to happen) GA raid.

We shall see

One suspects the presence of a superior commander with the authority to lay these trips on. And a curious reluctance to explain why he isn't doing it the normal way.

Whose plane needed that strut?

MaxxQ wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:About as stupid as sending an F-4G from Spangdahlem AB, Germany to Davis Montham AFB (the "Boneyard") for a nose-wheel strut (with a special shop-built adapter for the center-line bomb rack) because that was the only place one was available.

Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Reminds me of the time I was TDY to Tyndall from Cannon in NM, and we got there just after a hurricane had gone through. It was cold, but nobody brought field jackets because Florida, y'know? On top of that, the sole came off one of my boots. So, they flew everyones field jackets, and a new pair of boots, to us in a pair of travel pods bolted onto the weapons stations of an F-111.

saber964 wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:The SLN can always use warships for critical supplies; not exactly the most efficient way to transport logistics, but the SLN does have a lot of ships that aren't good for much else.

The Solarian League is short of interstellar transport in general and that's going to affect everyone. The SLN is probably going to have to resort to special runs for critical parts/supplies using whatever is available. That isn't the same as allocating fleet train assets to internal logistics.

Its about the stupidest way to haul anything.

True. And yet sometimes you need to fly the hump to keep even a shoestring military operation going until you can build up the logistics base to do it right.

(Admittedly no a perfect parallel as at least that used primarily transport aircraft -- but it was still about the worst way to ship real tonnage; but also about their only option at the time)

Louis R wrote:Whose plane needed that strut?

I really don't recall. I was in Red section and the strut was for yellow or blue section. We just had a plane due to rotate stateside to carry the adapter so its replacement could ferry the strut back.

Weird Harold wrote:
I can imagine it very easily since I worked on extended deployments that required rotating aircraft back to home base for periodic maintenance and ferrying parts and supplies in baggage pods or once-a-week C130 deliveries of troops and supplies.

And that's the difference, you have done the work on deployments. We are talking about an organization that thinks it's the best, act's like it's the best but does not have the knowledge, experience, training or infrastructure to back it up. Likely the only actual experience of operating with a fleet train died with Crandall and I doubt it was of any value to begin with. We are talking about a "military" organization that has had such a static deployment for the last few decades if not centuries that what you are describing is likely to require a lot of trial and error to get it right and they don't have the time or resources for that trial and error.

Weird Harold wrote:When have the Mandarins exhibited any concern about member systems other than the fiscal impact of reduced trade? For that matter, when have the Mandarins exhibited any sort of contact with reality?

I don't think they are that out of contact with reality, they just are used to playing by a different set of rules. They are quickly figuring that those rules no longer apply but they know that there are some rules that are like a law of nature by themselves, there is a fine line between using violence or the threat of violence to keep your systems in line and actively pushing them in the enemy camp and I think they know the difference. Some may be more aggressive then others but ultimately they are likely to realize that no matter what they say about the GA if they act more violent towards their own people than the GA does they will shed systems faster. That is if they can keep the SLN as a cohesive force long enough.

Weird Harold wrote:The Mandarins will continue to use force for as long as they can get away with it.

And if they do so much better for the GA.

WeirdlyWired wrote:IIRC the whole point of Crandall's "Operation Winter Forage" was to test just that capacity. They have plenty of capacity. They just have zero experience in actual combat. Also, wasn't Thandi Palane shocked (as a former SL marine) by how large the ratio of tail to head was in logistics to combat units? And some speculation over how long it would take for some smart Logistics officer to figure it out and get someone in command to actually ... pay attention?

That doesn't necessarily mean that they have a Fleet train. It could mean that they have bases that can support 2 times the SD's that the SLN has in service, or all of their bases are oversized for what they support. Or it could simply mean that for all the actual combat forces there are far more support personnel then any other navy. Example for every SLN member serving in a ship there are two dozen or more serving on bases while other fleets would have for every member serving on a ship 8 serving on bases supporting those serving on ships.

Brigade XO wrote:The SLN probably can't do much beyond commerce raiding as it would start to require maintaining combat ships in hostile areas outside the SL.

Think about a squadron of SL SD's showing up at some GA allied system, forcing surrender of a place similar to Zanzibar and then do what? Leave the whole squadron there to "hold" the system and perhaps capture any merchant ship that came by? What happens if they had some merchant ship leaving the system and not able to intercept it before it hypered out? So the GA sends a combat force geared to take on a squadron (plus screen) of SL SDs and just what is the SL supposed to do? Sit tight around the primary inhabited planet and hold it hostage? Actually, if they stay relativly deep in the system and the GA shows up that might be the only way they survive long enough to negotiate some sort of surrender.
Leaving ONE SD to hold the system is going to cost them the SD- and probably the crew if the commander doesn't surrender once confronted by a GA responce force.

I don't think they intend to hold any of the GA's systems. If they launch raiding forces it might be to try and hit any of the Alliance's systems that have a much lighter defence than the Home System of Manticore, Haven or Grayson. I don't think they fully understand the implications of a 20+ year war and how heavily fortified even the poorest system is. They may be able to punch out one or two Alliance systems especially in Silesia or Haven but the losses they take would dwarf any real advantage.


But basicly anything they sent to raid the GA or any of the verge systems they trade with will be taken out of play for months or years. This means that they could take part of or all of their fleet train out of the war when they will need it more.

If their intent is to capture alliance systems and try to hold them I would say they are bound to be very unpleasantly surprised...after all they cannot protect their own systems let alone any they manage to capture.

The league does not realise just how much a threat LACs and their carriers are to the smaller warships, those not of the line of battle. Their stealth capabilities combined with the FTL comms as well as speed, make it possible to hit beyond their weight class. The carriers would let them cover many systems. And the limited manufacture capability can easily produce Lacs over war ships.

Brigade XO wrote:The SLN probably can't do much beyond commerce raiding as it would start to require maintaining combat ships in hostile areas outside the SL.

Think about a squadron of SL SD's showing up at some GA allied system, forcing surrender of a place similar to Zanzibar and then do what? Leave the whole squadron there to "hold" the system and perhaps capture any merchant ship that came by? What happens if they had some merchant ship leaving the system and not able to intercept it before it hypered out? So the GA sends a combat force geared to take on a squadron (plus screen) of SL SDs and just what is the SL supposed to do? Sit tight around the primary inhabited planet and hold it hostage? Actually, if they stay relativly deep in the system and the GA shows up that might be the only way they survive long enough to negotiate some sort of surrender.
Leaving ONE SD to hold the system is going to cost them the SD- and probably the crew if the commander doesn't surrender once confronted by a GA responce force.

The political fallout from the commerce raiding - forget going out and "liberating" some non-alligned system that trades with the GA- is going to be intersting. SLN shows up, blows up some merchants that are Manticorian flagged and then "punishes" the system by destroying infrastructure that is being used to "support Manticore"- and then the SL raiders strip materials and resources from said system to maintain their supplies of basic materials (since they are unlikely to be able to pick up usuable military equipment like missiles) and then leave, having essentially beggered the system because it is trading with Manticore.

We saw some discussion about the difficlulty with the SL telling it's member systems with SDFs that they have to support SLN activity with their own ships as the SL in NOT at war. This is particularly interesting as the SLN has a fairly clear picture that they can not actually defend most of the systems against a nominal (and yet to happen) GA raid.

We shall see

I know my comment is going to be completely hypothetical and somewhat absurd but it seems to me that SD's and similar huge capital ships are going to play a rather insignificant role in a TRUE commerce raiding strategy...

When I think of commerce raiding I think of U-Boats and shipping lanes; I don't think of land assaults and Battle Ships. The idea is to cut off and harass the free movement of trade and commerce between allied planets; to hem THAT deep inside the gravity wells of planets associated or allied with the GA; to create a concern that the GA would have to expend a significant part of their limited resources on.

So, if SD's add little value to that strategy and if they can't partake in any other action without making themselves little more than high value, bulls-eye targets then what good are they? Well, they could serve a role as a logistics train. A lot of space in those hulks and a lot of those hulks in space. Parked well outside regions of conflict they could provide interim supply and support needs for their smaller cousins thereby significantly extending mission times.

npadln wrote:
(snippage)

So, if SD's add little value to that strategy and if they can't partake in any other action without making themselves little more than high value, bulls-eye targets then what good are they? Well, they could serve a role as a logistics train. A lot of space in those hulks and a lot of those hulks in space. Parked well outside regions of conflict they could provide interim supply and support needs for their smaller cousins thereby significantly extending mission times.

In order to use an SD as an overgrown destroyer tender, you would have to trade magazine/berthing/messing space for storage areas. Presumably, there is sufficient machine shop capacity in an SD to support a couple of squadrons of CL/DD. You would also have to have enough berthing to be able to take off the crew of a DD that was in need of serious repair.

As noted in other threads on what to do with Sollie SDs, that's a lot of work for not much gain. And you would tie up a building slip that could more productively be used for building DD/CL.