Havenite midshipmen

nrellis wrote:I'd have to say no. The RHN is probably 2 or 3 times the size of RMN in terms of manpower, and because of the side effects of the People's Republic's educational system so has an even more unbalanced ratio of officers. Sending that many officer cadets to Saganami Island would be impossible

That is a point. But all the RHN officer cadets don't have to go. They could send some but not all.

Henry Brown wrote:

nrellis wrote:I'd have to say no. The RHN is probably 2 or 3 times the size of RMN in terms of manpower, and because of the side effects of the People's Republic's educational system so has an even more unbalanced ratio of officers. Sending that many officer cadets to Saganami Island would be impossible

That is a point. But all the RHN officer cadets don't have to go. They could send some but not all.

That would lead to a 2-class-officer-corps, with all the problems that may produce. Not something to strive for, imho. By the way, during the legislaturist times, the then-PRHN had such an officer corps, and I doubt that Theisman et al are willing to repeat that experience.

The only way I see to make that possible would be to smooth out all the differences between the two educational systems and naval traditions the cadets/midshipmen come from. That may be possible in the long term; but I don't see it happen for the next 10 to 15 years. The recent history between Manticore and Haven is the most visible stumbling block for that. Aside the fact, that it would be a task, that only Haven has to fulfill (at least regarding the educational system part)

don't forget that the RMN may be having a lot of candidates with sub par education coming out of talbott and maybe silesa as well.

I know the plan mentioned, i think it was shadow of freedom, implied it would be a lot more sims and on the job training then is traditional but as it will likely take a decade plus to get the quadrant's education up to manty standards and they want to be able to take recruits, even if they do not have the basic education a manty takes for granted.

Bit of a necromancing action here (only two months since the last post) but I found the relevant bits I'd recalled when I posted on the first page.


Havenite enlisted & noncommissioned officers were heavy on conscripts, during the Legislaturalist & Committee eras.

Snippet

Echoes of Honor, Ch 40 wrote:Of course, Phillips came from a very different naval tradition—that of the Sarawak Republic, one of the liberal-thinking targets the Peeps had gobbled up in the early days of the DuQuesne Plan. The SSN had relied upon a professional officer corps, but Sarawak's advanced, egalitarian social theories had inspired it (unlike the dangerous, elitist plutocracy of Manticore) to use short-service conscripts to fill its enlisted and noncommissioned ranks. The result had produced something very like the present-day People's Navy, in which the service simply hadn't had its enlisted draftees long enough to train them up to Manticoran standards. Which meant that Phillips' ingrained belief that officers ought to be better at their jobs than petty officers represented her own experience, not blind prejudice.

Bolded the critical portion of the passage. So up until Honor's mass breakout from Hell, the Republic Navy had a small professional officer corps, and conscripts even before the Proles started voluntarily enlisting.

Now I think there's other existing text evidence, regarding the Havenite Marines from tSVW when Kevin Usher was part of the assassination squad that killed the head of InSec Constance Palmer-Levy that the Havenite Marines were also conscript heavy.

Which means short of any evidence otherwise, the only truly non-conscript portion of the Havenite military would be their Army/Pacification units; which actually makes a lot of sense. Given their duties, you'd only want people who wanted to be there doing that kind of work, even doing it; so I figure this is actually where the bulk of the future StateSec came from after StateSec ingested all other forms of security and militaries short of the Navy & Marines.

[quote
That would lead to a 2-class-officer-corps, with all the problems that may produce. Not something to strive for, imho. By the way, during the legislaturist times, the then-PRHN had such an officer corps, and I doubt that Theisman et al are willing to repeat that experience.
[/quote]

Two class officer corps? Only two? Not like a system (for several branches of military which include: Professional Millitary Academy, College (and prior) ROTC, plus OCS for "mustangs"?

Does that lead to a multi-class officer corps? I guess so.

Dauntless wrote:don't forget that the RMN may be having a lot of candidates with sub par education coming out of talbott and maybe silesa as well.

I know the plan mentioned, i think it was shadow of freedom, implied it would be a lot more sims and on the job training then is traditional but as it will likely take a decade plus to get the quadrant's education up to manty standards and they want to be able to take recruits, even if they do not have the basic education a manty takes for granted.

Before World War II, the US Navy Academy had a similar issue with Congressional nominees at two per district. Their solution -- I'll source this is a second -- was a preparatory academy, quite demanding, to bring students up to par on entrance to the Academy proper. I have no idea if they still do that.

My source on this is a recently deceased friend of mine, Charles V Wilhoit (Captain, USN, retired), who described going through it and then the Academy.

I confess that I am seriously not impressed with the notion that bringing educational standards up to par are, in Manticore period terms, expensive.

I thought the major issue for the Republic Navy was its weak NCOs and warrant officer numbers.

pnakasone wrote:I thought the major issue for the Republic Navy was its weak NCOs and warrant officer numbers.

The Haven forces are pretty much just like the old Soviet military. Vast percentage of troops are short term draftees, who are given minimal training. Technical jobs that in the US military would be done by mid career NCOs were done by officers.

kzt wrote:

pnakasone wrote:I thought the major issue for the Republic Navy was its weak NCOs and warrant officer numbers.

The Haven forces are pretty much just like the old Soviet military. Vast percentage of troops are short term draftees, who are given minimal training. Technical jobs that in the US military would be done by mid career NCOs were done by officers.

Very true when I was in the navy we had a visit by several Soviet (2 DDG and a AO) ships to San Diego. When i went down for a tour, one of the crew noticed my ships ball cap and asked me and my buddy if we we in the US navy and we said that we were and that we had been in 4 years (me) and my buddy had been in for 6 years and that we were volunteers. The guy was to say was shocked as hell. He was even more shocked when we told him that most of the petty officers and chiefs had a decade or more of service and that my CPO had 17 years in service.

How seriously, at this point in the time line, are the two new allies deciding to integrate? Grayson had the [dis]advantage of almost nothing, then lots of RMN crossovers to help out. working at the crusher would be good for offiers on the tac track. Maybe a snotty cruise crossover? probably not immediately but once the tech more evens out. Not something for such a fresh aliance to rush into.